She Exposed Epstein, and Shares MAGA's Anger
This conversation was taped before President Trump authorized the Justice Department to seek the release of grand jury testimony in Epstein's case.
Below is an edited transcript of an episode of 'Interesting Times.' We recommend listening to it in its original form for the full effect. You can do so using the player above or on the NYT audio app, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Ross Douthat: Julie K. Brown, welcome to 'Interesting Times.'
Julie K. Brown: Thank you.
Douthat: So for the last couple of weeks, ever since the Trump administration decided it was a good idea to tell the world that there was nothing more to say about the Jeffrey Epstein story, which has not been true, I feel like we've had a lot of these metaconversations about the case, conversations about Trump administration politics, MAGA infighting, theories about conspiracy theories.
I just keep coming back to the man himself and all of the weird questions that, to me as a journalist and news consumer, still hang over this whole story. So I'm really hoping that together we can walk through the story — the actual story of how Jeffrey Epstein the man became Jeffrey Epstein the mythic villain of the early 21st century. I want to start in the middle for him or maybe near the end for him but at the beginning for you. How did you first get drawn into this story? What prompted you as a journalist to start looking into Jeffrey Epstein and his crimes?
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A single facility in the US capable of processing and refining nodules would cost several billion dollars, and could take up to a decade to reach full production, in part due to the complexities of handling an entirely new feedstock, according to Niels Verbaan, director of metallurgy technical services for Swiss testing and certification company SGS. The US tax and spending bill enacted on July 4 allocates $5.5 billion to the Department of Defense for investments in critical minerals supply chains. But the US has suffered a precipitous decline in metallurgical expertise since the 1980s when universities began to eliminate related degree programs. 'We are decades behind now, and it's going to be very hard to catch up,' says Corby Anderson, a professor of metallurgical and materials engineering at the Colorado School of Mines. New immigration restrictions will also make it harder to recruit engineering talent from overseas. China has invested heavily in the industry and is now in a position to retrofit existing facilities to process nodules or build dedicated new plants. The country processes 74% of the world's cobalt ore, according to a 2024 report from the Wilson Center, a nonpartisan think tank, while 97% of global nickel ore processing capacity lies outside of North America. China also maintains more than 80% of the capacity for refining those metals into advanced EV battery materials. There's few existing facilities outside of China capable of handling nodules, even if a US seabed miner receives permission to use them and the owners are willing to revamp operations, according to industry executives. 'These processing plants are not just sitting there idle begging for feed, they're all in use today,' says Trytten. The 'blue whale' in the room TMC has found one overseas metals processor willing to make the switch. Last year, Pacific Metals Company of Japan fed a 2,000-ton pile of nodules collected by TMC in 2022 into an electric-arc furnace to produce 500 tons of a material. In February, it was smelted into a nickel-cobalt-copper alloy. 'These process plants are very expensive to build, they're very complicated, they're very risky,' says Jeffrey Donald, TMC's head of onshore development. 'So by using an existing asset, existing operators, you're really taking that capital off the front end and you're really de-risking the technology and operations aspect.' In April, Pacific Metals announced it would transition from processing nickel ore to smelting nodules. But it doesn't expect full production to begin until 2029 at the earliest. TMC has also struck a deal with metals giant Korea Zinc, which is assessing the feasibility of refining nodules into battery materials, a process TMC has so far tested only in the lab. Whether nations would be enabling deep-sea mining through commercial relationships with US-licensed seabed mining companies was the subject of whispered conversations among ISA delegates this month as they continued drafting mining regulations. Trump's move to mine in international waters and TMC's defiance of the ISA was, as French ambassador Olivier Guyonvarch alluded, 'the blue whale' in the room. The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea prohibits unilateral mining by any country or corporation. It also requires the ISA to administer the global seabed for the benefit of humanity, with any royalties from mining divided among member states. The US never ratified the treaty, though it had generally adhered to its provisions and still participates in ISA proceedings as an observer. Pressure is growing on member states to not supply technology to seabed mining companies the US licenses, process their nodules or buy metals from them, as the treaty mandates ISA countries treat unilateral mining as illegitimate. Thirty-seven ISA countries support a moratorium on seabed mining until its environmental impacts are better understood. 'The risks of bypassing the ISA's oversight are not only legal, they are also economic,' ISA Secretary-General Leticia Carvalho said in a statement to Bloomberg Green. 'Product lines derived from ventures that violate international law will carry reputational and legal concerns that increase the risk of the investment and can undermine its return.' Pacific Metals appears to have gotten the message. In a recent investor briefing, the company, which did not respond to requests for comment, emphasized that when it comes to nodule processing, it considers 'international credibility to be a material issue.' 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