How violent protests in Epping are being fuelled by disinformation
Not only had Essex police used their own vans to 'bus in' antiracism counter-demonstrators last week to Epping, insisted one of the men, but masked undercover police officers had been among the 'lefties'.
'They were masked up and looked like foot-soldiers. Anyone who works in security will also pick up on how they were standing. If you looked you could see they held their hands together to give a discreet thumbs-up sign,' said the man, reluctant like so many other local people to go on the record, but who gave his name as 'Steve Davis'.
The only problem with this analysis was: it appeared to be entirely wrong.
Essex police has 'categorically' denied that it bussed in antiracism protesters. The suggestion of state-sponsored 'false flag' provocateurs – a frequent trope advanced on niche corners of social media at times of tensions on the streets – was also dismissed.
The denials have often come too late to stop the conspiracies taking hold. They have been eagerly spread by the Reform UK leader, Nigel Farage, and also carried on the front page of the Daily Telegraph.
Disinformation has been one of the most alarming characteristics of the violent protests in Epping, whose focus has been the use of the Bell hotel to house asylum seekers.
Local people have continued to turn out for the protests, which were sparked after an asylum seeker was charged with sexual assault – but far-right activists have played a key role in promoting them online. Activists from groups including Homeland, Patriotic Alternative and the neo-Nazi White Vanguard movement have been present.
Online misinformation and disinformation originating on niche corners of X has been amplified – seemingly without attempt to corroborate whether it are true – by politicians such as Farage and commenters from the GB News channel.
Video clips of Stand Up to Racism protesters being taken out of Epping last Thursday in police vans, after they were surrounded by groups of men who threw projectiles at them and the police, were quickly repurposed on social media – and presented as if they were images of protesters being transported from Epping station.
In fact, as Essex police has confirmed, the Stand Up to Racism protesters had made their way on foot from the station earlier in the day, while police escorted them on foot to enable them to exercise a right to protest.
By Friday, however, rightwing commenters such as the ex-GB News presenter Dan Wootton were also misrepresenting the footage. 'They actually escorted people in police vans,' Wootton told the viewers of the online show he set up after leaving GB News.
On Wednesday, Farage posted the same footage on X, saying: 'This video proves [police] transported leftwing protesters to the Bell hotel in Epping' and calling for the resignation of the Essex police chief constable, Ben-Julian Harrington.
The force issued a statement saying this was categorically untrue, while Harrington made pointed comments in a press conference where he urged commenters to be responsible for what they said online, adding that it had 'real-world consequences'.
Farage modulated his language after he was contacted by the Guardian on Wednesday, saying the police were 'escorting and bussing masked thugs to and from the protest', but his original tweet remains on X.
Later on Thursday, and in a tweet shortly after 10pm on Wednesday, Farage went on GB News to say he had received a call from a police officer who was in charge of the operation to say he was wrong. 'If I was slightly out on accuracy I apologise but I think the gist of what I was saying was right,' he said.
By then, however, the misinformation had spread like wildfire and done 'real damage', according to Lewis Nielsen of Stand Up to Racism.
'It is a complete lie to say, as Farage has claimed, that Stand Up to Racism protesters were 'bussed in'. We are mobilising antiracists, trade unionists, campaigners and faith groups against the far right in Epping,' he said.
Yet more conspiracies – some outlandish, others more minor but corrosive – continue to circulate. They include unsubstantiated accusations that asylum seekers staying at the hotel are routinely shoplifting in Epping.
Other claims – accompanied by pictures of the Stand Up to Racism protest – include one that Epping police has been paying protesters £40 'for three hours' work. It was among conspiracy theories being disseminated in online spaces including the Epping Says No! Facebook group, which has more than 1,600 members. Its administrators include activists from the far-right Homeland party, Adam Clegg and Callum Barker.
The claims of undercover police officers being among the antiracism protesters have been accompanied by clips and pictures zeroing in on pictures of some of those protesters.
The claims were also denied by Essex police, which has been trying to combat what it calls 'myths' in videos fronted by an assistant chief constable. The force specifically picked out the claim that there were 'police decoys in the crowd encouraging violence', rebutting it on its YouTube channel.
Nielsen also denied the claim: 'It is categorically false that the police are involved in Stand Up to Racism protests, or play any role in organising them. If anything our protests – like others – have faced police repression in recent years.'
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Scottish Sun
an hour ago
- Scottish Sun
Shamed Gregg Wallace says ‘I'm no groper, sex pest or flasher,' as tearful star refuses to accept blame for BBC sacking
Click to share on X/Twitter (Opens in new window) Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window) FORMER MasterChef host Gregg Wallace has pleaded his innocence, telling The Sun in a tearful interview: 'I'm not a groper, a sex pest or a flasher.' The 60-year-old, sacked by the BBC after a probe into allegations of bad behaviour, said he wanted to clear his name but is 'not looking to play the victim'. 12 In a tearful interview with The Sun, former MasterChef host Gregg Wallace has pleaded his innocence Credit: Dan Charity 12 Wallace says he has been unfairly bracketed with sex offenders Jimmy Savile and Huw Edwards Credit: Dan Charity 12 Gregg has also backed axed co-host John Torode, saying: 'he's not a racist' Wallace says he has been unfairly bracketed with sex offenders Jimmy Savile and Huw Edwards, adding: 'That's so horrific.' The ex-MasterChef host spoke out in his first interview since the BBC sacked him following complaints from multiple women over several years. He says: 'There's so much that I want to say, and so much that I want to put right, if I can. 'I'm not saying I'm not guilty of stuff, but so much has been perceived incorrectly. Things that really hurt me and hurt my family.' Wallace — who has not been paid for this interview — adds from his home in Kent: 'I'm not a groper. People think I've been taking my trousers down and exposing myself — I am not a flasher. 'People think I'm a sex pest. I am not. I am not sexist or a misogynist, or any of it. 'There never were any accusations of sexual harassment. 'I have seen myself written about in the same sentence as Jimmy Savile and Huw Edwards, paedophiles and sex offenders. That is just so, so horrific.' He adds from his sitting room, dotted with photos of wife Anna and six-year-old son Sid: 'I have learnt a lot about myself over the past eight months or so, and I'm still learning. 'I know I have said things that offended people, that weren't socially acceptable and perhaps they felt too intimidated or nervous to say anything at the time. 'We'll never work with him again', blast BBC as Gregg Wallace report reveals 'substantial' allegations over 19 YEARS 'I understand that now — and to anyone I have hurt, I am so sorry. 'I don't expect anyone to have any sympathy with me but I don't think I am a wrong 'un.' During our interview, Wallace flips between anger and remorse, and bursts into tears when talking about the fall-out for his family. He also backs axed MasterChef co-host John Torode, saying: 'He's not a racist.' The report into Wallace's conduct, from law firm Lewis Silkin, saw 45 of 83 complaints upheld. In total, 41 people complained. I've worked with around 4,000 people - cast, crew, production - which means 0.5 per cent of people found fault with me Gregg Wallace But he says: 'I've worked with around 4,000 people — cast, crew, production — which means 0.5 per cent of people found fault with me. 'That means in a room of 200 people, one person complained about my knob joke. It sounds a lot, but you have to consider that I don't work in an office.' However, Wallace does accept that this 0.5 per cent is too many. The timeline of allegations does not make for pretty reading. 12 The ex-MasterChef host, 60, was sacked by the BBC following complaints from multiple women over several years Credit: Dan Charity 12 I'm not a groper, a sex pest or a flasher, said Gregg in his first interview since his axe Credit: Dan Charity 12 During the chat, Wallace flipped between anger and remorse, and even bursted into tears Credit: Dan Charity One of the worst, which was upheld, was that he groped a woman. Wallace claims he was attempting to flirt, recalling: 'It was 15 years ago. Me, drunk, at a party, with my hand on a girl's bum. 'This girl told me about an affair she was having with a married man who was part of the Conservative government. I can't remember who it was. 'She gave me her phone number. I considered that to be intimacy. I was single at the time . . . well, I was dating, but I wasn't married. Now, even in the report, it says, 'Gregg believes this contact to be consensual'. So, listen, drag me out into the marketplace and stone me now.' 'Jovial and crude' Wallace is also keen to point out that he isn't a flasher. The moment he paraded around the MasterChef studio with a sock on his willy has been heavily reported. He says: 'Yes, that's one of the three upheld, the one with a sock on. Can I clarify what that is though? That was 18 years ago. The studio is shut, there's no contestants.' He said outside his dressing-room door was a sofa with four of his mates from the show on it, including Monica Galetti. He went on: 'I was getting changed to go to a black tie event, a charity event. I put my bow tie on and my shirt. It's only them outside the door. I put the sock on, opened the door, went, 'Wahey!' and shut the door again. 'The people interviewed were either amused or bemused. Nobody was distressed.' He takes a dimmer view of other allegations, including claims he dropped his trousers in front of a lady named as Alice by a BBC News investigation. He rages: 'That really damaged me. In the investigation, it says this person's story is simply not credible.' Wallace accepts he regularly got changed in front of people, and showed off his six-pack. One of the main threads of the upheld accusations is the use of sexualised or inappropriate language. He accepts all of these - and blames his background. It was 15 years ago. Me, drunk, at a party, with my hand on a girl's bum Gregg Wallace Wallace insists: 'I'm a green-grocer from Peckham. 'I thrived in Covent Garden's Fruit and Veg Market. 'In that environment that is jovial and crude. It is learned behaviour. 'And that's exactly the persona I brought into the workplace. Nobody ever asked me to change. 'MasterChef was a big hit. They gave me Celebrity MasterChef. That's a big hit. They gave me Professional MasterChef. It's a big hit. They gave me Eat Well for Less. They gave me Inside the Factory. I've got five returnable series. 'They're all big hits, and every day I'm giving them what I think they want. It's jokes, it's banter. 'It's relaxing virtually everybody I work with and we're getting good interaction with them.' 12 Gregg, above with The Sun's Clemmie Moodie, says he's been scared to go out since the scandal broke Credit: Dan Charity 12 Wallace pictured at his home in Kent with wife Anna Credit: Dan Charity 12 He accepts the upheld accusations of use of sexualised or inappropriate language, blaming his background Credit: Dan Charity In January Wallace was formally diagnosed with autism, and he admits he is 'learning every day' about it. He sticks by his awkward claim that his refusal to wear underwear was down to that. Devastated by backlash Wallace says: 'I never wear pants', before raising his short- covered leg as if to demonstrate. 'I'm not wearing socks either.' I tell him to keep his leg down. Bemused he adds: 'Somehow everybody has sexualised this as well. It's not sexualised. It's hypersensitivity — that happens with autism.' Autism charities have dropped him, with some saying it is not 'a hall-pass for bad behaviour'. Wallace understands but has been devastated by the backlash. Having spent two-and-a-half hours with him, I believe he is severely on the spectrum. He repeatedly tells me off for interrupting — fair enough — and he is adamant we start the interview his way, which sees him nervously reading scribbled-down thoughts from scraps of paper. I arrived at his home not expecting to like him but left liking him. He peppers every conversation with slightly painful jokes, including: 'What do you call a judge with no thumbs? Justice Fingers!' Another sees him making a curled-finger hand gesture, asking: 'What is this? A microwave!' I know I am odd. I know I struggle to read people. I know people find me weird. Autism is a disability, a registered disability Gregg Wallace I'm still none the wiser. He is like a schoolboy desperate to please without being malicious. I previously wrote about a bruising encounter on a journalists' special of MasterChef in 2014 in which I'd accused him of making me feel deeply uncomfortable. I read out some of my criticism, saying I felt he 'gas-lit' me. Wallace appears confused as he asks me what that means. He replies after a beat: 'I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. "We were playing pantomime roles, I was playing up to it. I had no idea you felt that way, I honestly struggle to read people. 'I know I am odd. I know I struggle to read people. I know people find me weird. Autism is a disability, a registered disability. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real.' One of the claims that hurt him most — and saw him trolled mercilessly — was when Sir Rod Stewart publicly said he had bullied his wife Penny Lancaster on Celebrity MasterChef four years ago. He says it was not upheld, adding: 'It was us having a disagreement over whether an orchid should stay in a bowl of soup.' Sighing, he goes on: 'I'm actually a Rod Stewart fan. I've been to see him twice. So that hurt me. Somebody like that carries a lot of weight. But there was no bullying and no harassing.' 12 Wallace, who was formally diagnosed with autism in January, says he is 'learning every day' about it Credit: Dan Charity DAVIE WON'T MIX WITH LIKES OF ME By Clemmie Moodie BBC Director-General Tim Davie failed to get in touch with Gregg Wallace after his sacking, he claims. Wallace also hit out at the decision to pay off disgraced newsreader Huw Edwards. And he accused the organisation of being out of touch with working-class people. He said: 'I haven't heard from Tim at all. 'I think people like Tim were told that if they worked hard at school, they wouldn't have to mix with people like me. 'The BBC right now, absolutely everybody's been to Guatemala and nobody's been to Lewisham. 'I don't have an uncle who works for the BBC who's doing me any favours. They gave me big shows and they were all a success. So it was a massive shock to me in 2018 to find that what I was doing could cause problems.' Wallace was dismissed by production firm Banijay and did not receive a pay-out. While not disputing this, he is angry they paid off Edwards. He added: 'Huw Edwards received a £200,000 pay off after he was arrested — I didn't get so much as a pat on the back and a tenner. 'I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out a fact. I'm not looking to play the victim.' There was also a 2018 complaint from his time on BBC One's Impossible Celebrities, where he told a female employee she was 'very bright and very pretty' and was 'rude' to the show's production runners. He says: 'I asked for a healthy lunch and they gave me a packaged sandwich I didn't want so I was a bit cross.' Another complaint referred to him asking a model what she ate in a day to stay so thin. The BBC sent him on a course which was, he claims, like 'telling someone with a heart condition to go and fix their own heart rate'. I'm scared' He adds: 'They told me about how to interact with young people. 'My problem was that I saw myself the same as them, but they weren't perceiving me the same as them. They saw me as a position of authority. So I was being too familiar and I was told I shouldn't try to talk to them about what they might be doing at the weekend or where they're going on holiday because I might be forcing them to converse with me on personal details that they might not want to give. 'And I didn't know I was autistic at the time. So all that did was just confuse the living daylights out of me. So from that point on, I just stopped talking to young people because I realised that I was working in a complaints culture. 'And if I could get in serious trouble for telling a girl she was attractive, what would happen if I went out drinking with people and said something political or sexual? 'So I just stopped talking to young people. In fact, I stopped socialising on MasterChef. It just panicked me.' From then on, there was only one allegation of inappropriate behaviour. Wallace has, he says, spent the past seven years 'hiding behind my sofa reading history books'. My biggest, biggest regret is that I ever went anywhere near a television studio - I was doing just fine as a greengrocer Gregg Wallace Since the scandal broke, he says he has been scared to go out 'in case people, who think I'm a sex pest, abuse me in the street'. He went on: 'The first time I went to the gym afterwards I was shaking. I have been so scared. I go out now in a disguise — a baseball cap and sunglasses, I don't want people to see me. I'm scared.' Wallace also admits a level of guilt for what happened to his Aussie co-star John, who had an allegation of racism upheld against him during the investigation. He storms: 'I've known John for 30 years and he is not a racist. 'And as evidence of that, I'll show you the incredible diversity of the people that he has championed, MasterChef winners, over the years. There is no way that man is a racist. No way. And my sympathies go out to John because I don't want anybody to go through what I've been through.' Following the investigation, Wallace unfollowed John and his wife Lisa Faulkner on social media. He says: 'We never really did get on that well. 'We're two very, very different characters. But we made bloody good telly together for 20 years.' Wallace says that the only positive from this is getting to spend more time with his non-verbal autistic son Sid. He admits he wished he had stayed in his former profession instead of embarking on a TV career. He says: 'My biggest, biggest regret is that I ever went anywhere near a television studio — I was doing just fine as a greengrocer." 12 Wallace also admits a level of guilt for what happened to his Aussie co-star John Credit: BBC 12 Wallace says that the only positive from this scandal is getting to spend more time with his non-verbal autistic son Sid Credit: Rex
The Sun
an hour ago
- The Sun
It's easy to sneer at Corbyn after farcical launch of his new party but here's why Starmer should be very, very afraid
IT is easy to sneer at Jeremy Corbyn and his new political party. As Labour leader Corbyn took his former comrades to their biggest defeat since 1935, winning just 203 seats. 2 2 As leader of a fringe party he will have zero chance of becoming Prime Minister. We can all be thankful for that. The launch of the party was itself farcical, with Corbyn already apparently falling out with his co-founder, former Labour MP Zarah Sultana. It appears to be called 'Your Party', and even has a website by that name, yet within hours of the launch Sultana tweeted in protest 'it's not called that!' and insisted that a name will be chosen at the putative party's first conference. When challenged on the row, Corbyn announced that Sultana was 'in Coventry' (where her constituency is), failing to spot the euphemism. All very Corbyn-like. If I were Keir Starmer, however, I would be taking the launch of the new party very seriously indeed. While Your Party, or whatever it is called, has no chance of forming a government, it has every chance of contributing to the downfall of the current one. Just look how Reform UK ate into the Conservative Party vote in last year's General Election, helping reduce it to a rump of just 120 seats. Corbyn has every chance of inflicting as much damage on Labour as Reform UK did on the Tories. Add to Labour's misery Corbyn and Sultana haven't announced much in the way of policy yet — you wouldn't expect them to have done — but their declaration on Thursday included two positions which absolutely hit the right buttons for Labour's increasingly disenchanted band of supporters on the Left. First, they want to end arms sales to Israel, and second, they propose to take all utility companies into public ownership. Inside UK's 1st Reform pub with £2 pints, boozers drinking 'Remainer tears' & even Corbyn's allowed in, on one condition As for the first, just look how Labour suffered at the hands of independent pro-Palestinian candidates in the last election, with Jonathan Ashworth losing his supposedly safe seat in Leicester and Wes Streeting, now Health Secretary, scraping home by just 528 votes in Ilford North. Shabana Mahmood, now Justice Secretary, saw her 28,000 majority shrink to just 3,421 in the face of a challenge from a pro-Palestine candidate — and that was against the backdrop of a national Labour landslide. A nationally organised General Election campaign which focuses on Gaza — even one organised by Corbyn — can surely only add to Labour's misery on this front. Whatever the rest of us might think of Hamas, and worry that a Palestinian state — if created now — would simply become a terrorist state, this is a touchstone issue on the Left and has the potential to cost the party a substantial number of seats. As for nationalising public utilities, that would be hugely popular among voters — and not just Labour ones. According to a recent YouGov poll, the public favours public ownership of energy companies by a margin of 71 per cent to 17 per cent and of water companies by 82 to eight per cent. Where Corbyn would find the money to renationalise utility companies is, of course, another matter, but my guess is that many voters will not be bothered by that little problem. At the next election, Starmer will in one sense be in an even worse position than Rishi Sunak was in last year. Starmer will have two upstart parties chipping away at his vote. While Corbyn's party will be attracting votes on the Left, Reform UK has already started eating into the traditional working class Labour vote as Nigel Farage adopts an agenda that is more economically left-wing. To add to this, Labour holds a very large number of seats on small majorities. It won a landslide only because its unimpressive 34 per cent share of the vote was very efficiently spread. It won't take much for Labour's majority to evaporate. Not for the first time, you have to wonder at Starmer's political naivety in chucking Corbyn out of the Labour Party. It may have seemed a good wheeze at the time, five years ago, to make a statement that Labour really had changed. There was also a good reason for it in Corbyn's claim that accusations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party had been 'massively overstated for political reasons'. But Corbyn had been saying ridiculous things for decades and had never been thrown out by Labour. Vanished without trace Tony Blair correctly worked out that Corbyn had a huge following on the Left and it was best to tolerate his presence. Starmer seems to have a poor political brain by comparison. Mastering a political start-up is notoriously difficult in Britain's first-past-the-post election system. Who now remembers ChangeUK, the anti- Brexit party which was launched with eight MPs who had defected from their parties but which quickly vanished without trace? Even Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams' SDP only lasted eight years in spite of some impressive early by-election wins. But Starmer should remember how the SDP nevertheless helped keep Labour a long way from power during the 1980s. His fate may just have been sealed.
Times
an hour ago
- Times
James Cleverly: I like Farage but Reform are a one-man band
Where many Tories view Nigel Farage as a menacing bogeyman, Sir James Cleverly is prepared to admit that he likes him. 'I've met him a couple of times,' Cleverly says. 'He's fun, he's funny, he's interesting. He's a very, very good communicator. He's very good at holding fort. He's a very clubbable person.' But for Cleverly, a Tory big beast who this week returned to the shadow cabinet, Farage has an inherent limitation: there is only one of him. 'The challenge he's got is that he's the only one in his party that you can describe in those terms,' Cleverly says. 'It's fine for what they've been doing at the moment, which is having him as the lead singer and everyone else if basically the backing band. But if you're going to be taken seriously as a party of government, that's nowhere near enough. As much as he's smart and funny and talented, he's not omnipresent.' • Shadow cabinet reshuffle: Badenoch returns Cleverly to Tory front bench Who, Cleverly rhetorically asks, are Farage's shadow chancellor, shadow home secretary and shadow defence secretary? 'The fact is he hasn't got any of them. That's nowhere near good enough to be taken seriously as an alternative party of government. The British people deserve better. He's their biggest advantage and their biggest disadvantage.' Farage 'crumbles' when pushed for details, Cleverly adds. 'We're now seeing that as soon as he's asked even for an order of magnitude explanation to the cost of some of his ideas he totally falls apart. When he's trying to outbid Labour on welfare spending, when you talk to him about how he's going to do that whilst also cutting taxes, he falls apart.' Cleverly was the big name in Kemi Badenoch's mini-reshuffle this week. Last October he dropped out of the Tory leadership contest after being bested by a margin of only four votes, going from runaway favourite to also-ran in an instant. Some of his supporters later admitted that they were so confident Cleverly would make it to the final pairing that they backed one of his rivals, a move designed to improve his chances of winning the overall contest. That turned out to be a catastrophic error. Cleverly decided to take a break. 'I'd come off the back of being foreign secretary, home secretary,' he says. 'During much of the previous couple of years Susie [his wife] was going through her cancer treatment, which actually impacted me more than I realised at the time. Then we went into an incredibly bruising general election campaign and instead of taking a breather over the summer I threw myself into a leadership campaign. At this point I realised that I did actually need a bit of time, a bit more time with Susie, a bit of time with the family.' Did he enjoy his time off? In fact it was a 'pretty turbulent' period, Cleverly says. At the beginning of the year one of his closest friends from his army days died after developing oesophageal cancer. 'In the early part of the new year I was with him when he died,' Cleverly says. 'The weekend after, my brother-in-law — Susie's younger brother — had a catastrophic heart attack and he died. And then, just over a week ago, my father died. So the first half of this year has been pretty full on.' When Cleverly was approached by the Conservatives' chief whip last week, he decided it was time for a return. He is now shadowing Angela Rayner's community and housing brief. 'I genuinely thought Labour would mess up,' he says. 'But they were messing up at such a rate [it] meant we had to get back on the front foot more quickly than perhaps anyone had envisaged. We didn't have the time in opposition to build up slowly and gently.' It does not look good for the Tories. Under Badenoch they have gone backwards in the polls and there have been complaints in the shadow cabinet about her leadership and her strategy. Some shadow ministers think she will be ousted after November, when the one-year protection period shielding her from a leadership challenge expires. 'Let's not do the whole kind of, 'Throw a leader under the bus and see if it works this time',' Cleverly says. 'It hasn't worked the last three or four times we've done it. My strong advice is [that] our effort, our time, our energy, our focus, is much, much better directed at making sure Kemi succeeds as leader. Kemi won fair and square. She's got strong ideas, she is a staunch Conservative.' • Emma Duncan: James Cleverly's homecoming is smart move for Tories Some of the attacks on Badenoch have been vituperative. The New Statesman reported that some Tories believe she is pulling her punches on illegal migration because she is an 'anchor baby', a term used in the United States to refer to people who ensure their children are born in a country in order to gain residency. Badenoch has said she was born in the UK because her mother, who is from Nigeria, came to get medical care at a private hospital. 'The idea of living in the UK and moving to the UK was not something that was at the forefront,' she has said. Cleverly says the attacks originate on the left and highlights the abuse he has suffered because his mother came to Britain from Sierra Leone. 'There's a particularly pernicious type of left-wing racism which rears its ugly head surprisingly regularly,' he says. 'This is one of the things I find really, really, really unpalatable. I had this when I was home secretary, when I was tough on migration. And people said, 'You're such a hypocrite to try to crack down on small boats because your mum was an immigrant'. 'Which implied that in the eyes of some people all immigrants are the same. That somehow my mum … playing by the rules, filling in the forms, joining the queue and spending a whole working life in the NHS, that somehow she is the same as someone that's paid a criminal to get here on a small boat. That I find incredibly distasteful. 'And sadly, it's unsurprising that Kemi is having these kind of accusations flung at her. I know she has got a bit of an armoured hide when it comes to this kind of comment, so I can't imagine she's staying awake over comments like that.' The Tories, he says, are still experiencing the wrath of voters after their 'comprehensive' defeat at the general election. 'You talk to voters [and] last year's general election feels a heartbeat away. They are still angry with us about the things they were angry with us about at the general election. There is a residual frustration with us and a newfound frustration with the Labour Party.' Cleverly's critics often call him a centrist. They point to his position on the European Court of Human Rights — he has repeatedly said it is no 'silver bullet' — and his criticism of the 'neo-Luddites' on the right opposed to green technology and who think that climate change campaigners are 'scaremongering'. Cleverly says those critics are wrong and describes himself as a 'Thatcherite Reaganite'. His leadership platform included a 'really significant reduction in welfare spending' and committing the party to spending 3 per cent on defence in government. Badenoch has committed to scrapping the net zero 2050 target, a position Cleverly agrees with. 'When we, as a party, were making that commitment on that timescale, it was prior to Russia's invasion [of] Ukraine, prior to much of the current conflict in the Middle East,' he says. 'The timetables that we set out before those major events are no longer tenable. 'We shouldn't be capping wells in the North Sea. We shouldn't be putting lead in our own saddles when it comes to competing on a global market. We shouldn't be throwing heavy industry under a bus. But while making sure we protect ourselves here, we should still be looking to take full advantage of the direction of travel in green technologies and energy technologies.' Badenoch is widely expected to announce at the autumn's party conference that she is committing the party to leaving the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). She has commissioned a review by Lord Wolfson, the shadow attorney-general, to look at the issue in the meantime. Will Cleverly back leaving the ECHR? 'The lesson we learnt from Brexit is if you want to make a big change like that, you have to have a delivery plan,' he says. 'Boring as this may sound, I'm actually going to wait for this incredibly smart and thoughtful person to do the analysis before I make a final judgment.' He is concerned about 'judicial activism', however. 'There are tensions that are being stoked because of perverse decisions by the immigration tribunal, through the judicial review process. What message does that send to people that have actually done the right thing and voted?' Cleverly says he feels sympathy for those protesting peacefully outside migrant hotels. 'I understand why they're so very, very angry,' he says. 'I understand why they look to the government that made a whole load of bold promises, who thought it was all going to be so terribly easy, and have let those communities down. Where I absolutely do not have any sympathy is for people who travel across the country to try to turn peaceful community protests into a violent, clickbait protest. Hijacking community concerns is something that should be responded to forcefully by the courts, by the police.' Surely the Conservatives were part of the problem? The failure to stop small boats crossing the Channel led to tens of thousands of people being housed in asylum hotels. 'I completely recognise that this very visible and very alarming spike in illegal migration … shot up while we were in government,' he says. 'The focus we had on this was relentless. We were willing to try a whole range of things. And that's in part where the Rwanda plan came from, looking at doing things really fundamentally different, as well as beefing up the National Crime Agency's work in Europe, disrupting criminal gangs, arresting people, deporting people.' • Badenoch says she would copy drastic cuts of Argentina's president Labour, he says, showed an 'appalling lack of planning and foresight' and its decision to cancel the plan to sent migrants to Rwanda was 'absolutely toxic'. On housing, Cleverly says he wants to make it easier to 'go up a little bit' by building new levels on existing buildings, as well as ensuring there is 'greater density' in cities with good-quality housing. He also could look at property taxes to help people get on the ladder. His overall message is that the Tories do not need to 'reinvent the wheel'. 'What we need to do is update the way we present that to a new generation of voters,' he says. 'But conservative principles are sound and we don't need to drift away from those conservative principles. And that's the reason we've been such a successful political party.' However, the Tories cannot afford to be passive and must go after the voters who have defected to other parties. 'We can't just rely on them to come back, we've got to go and get them,' he says. 'We need to be hunters, not farmers. We need to make the case. People voted for other political parties for a reason. And we need to go get them back.' Kemi Badenoch of Robert Jenrick? Kemi. We have got to give her a chance. Nigel Farage or Keir Starmer? Neither. They can go in a room together and talk about their ineptitude. British & Irish Lions or the English cricket team? Lions. I'm a rugby player. Opposition or government? Government. David Cameron always said a day in government is better than a year in opposition.
