Full transcript of 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,' June 1, 2025

Wakala News

01-06-2025

On this 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan' broadcast, moderated by Ed O'Keefe:
Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent
Sen. Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky
Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, Democrat of Illinois
Michael Roth, Wesleyan University president
FDA commissioner Dr. Marty Makary
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.'
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: As the turmoil over tariffs continues, we will speak exclusively with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. The economic whiplash from the on-again/off-again Trump tariffs persists here at home, as does the confusion around the world. As for President Trump, he's doubling down on his insistence that they will help the U.S. economy.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): And it'll only get better. The tariffs are so important. Without the tariffs, our nation would be in peril.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will talk with Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul about what he doesn't like in the president's big, beautiful bill.
Plus: How will the administration's new restrictions on foreign student visas impact America's colleges and universities? House Democrat Raja Krishnamoorthi and Wesleyan University President Michael Roth will be here.
Finally, we will get some clarity on whether or not healthy children and pregnant women should get the COVID vaccine after a week of mixed messaging from Trump administration health officials. FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary will join us to clear things up.
It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We begin today with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent.
Good morning, and thank you for being here morning.
SCOTT BESSENT (U.S. Treasury Secretary): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's so much to get to. I want to start with China, because the defense secretary just said there's an imminent military threat from China to Taiwan.
Days earlier, Secretary Rubio said he'd aggressively revoked Chinese student visas. On top of that, you have curbing exports to China. Trade talks, you said, with Beijing are stalled, and President Trump just accused China of violating an agreement, and now says no more Mr. Nice Guy.
Are you intentionally escalating this standoff with Beijing?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I don't think it's intentional.
I – I think that what Secretary Hegseth did was remind everyone that, during COVID, China was an unreliable partner. And what we are trying to do is to de-risk. We do not want to decouple, Margaret, but we do need to de- risk, as we saw during COVID, whether it was with semiconductors, medicines, the other products. We are in the process of de-risking.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Making the United States less reliant on China, but at the same…
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, and the whole world, the whole world, because what China is doing is, they are holding back products that are essential for the industrial supply chains of India, of Europe, and that is not what a reliable partner does.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, is that – like, what specifically is President Trump saying when he says they are violating an agreement? Because it was the one you negotiated in Geneva earlier this month.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And what's the consequence for that?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, we will see what the consequences are.
I am confident that, when President Trump and Party Chairman Xi have a call, that this will be ironed out. So – but the fact that they are withholding some of the products that they agreed to release during our agreement, maybe it's a glitch in the Chinese system. Maybe it's intentional. We'll see after the president speaks with the party chairman.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's critical minerals, rare earths? Is that what you're talking about?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the president has said a few times that he was going to speak to President Xi, but he hasn't since before the inauguration.
Beijing keeps denying that there was any contact. Do you have anything scheduled?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I believe we'll see something very soon, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you have a conversation with your counterpart or Lutnick with his counterpart at the commerce level?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I think we're going to let the two principles have a conversation, and then everything will stem from that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: J.P. Morgan Jamie Dimon spoke this week at an economic forum, and he gave this read on Beijing:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON (Chairman, J.P. Morgan Chase): I just got back from China last week. They're not scared, folks. This notion they're going to come bow to America, no, I wouldn't count on that. You know, and when they have a problem, they put 100,000 engineers on it, and, no, they've been preparing for this for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you underestimated the Chinese state's backbone here?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Again, Margaret, I hope it doesn't come to that.
And Jamie is a great banker. I know him well, but I would vociferously disagree with that assessment, that the laws of economics and gravity apply to the Chinese economy and the Chinese system, just like everyone else.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But when you were last here in March, we were trying to gauge what the impact of the standoff with China and with the tariffs on the rest of the world would do for American consumers here at home.
At that time, you told us you were going to appoint an affordability czar and council to figure out five – you said, or eight areas where there will be some pain for working-class Americans. Where are you anticipating price increases?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, thus far – we wanted to make sure that there aren't price increases, Margaret. And, thus far, there have been no price increases. Everything has been alarmist, that the inflation numbers are actually dropping.
We saw the first drop of inflation in four years. The inflation numbers last week, they were very – the – pro-consumer. We've seen…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. But you listen to earnings calls just like we do. You know what Walmart's saying, what Best Buy's saying and what Target are saying of what's coming.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: But, Margaret, I also know what Home Depot and Amazon are saying. I know what the 'South China Morning Post' wrote within the past 24 hours, that 65 percent, 65 percent – the – of the tariffs will likely be eaten by the Chinese producers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, are there five or eight areas that you have identified, as you said back in March, where American consumers will be able to have lower prices, or should be warned of higher prices?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, a lot of it's already working its way through the system. So we've seen a substantial decrease in gasoline and energy prices. So that's down 20 percent year over year.
We've seen the food prices go down, these notorious egg prices. Through the good work of President Trump and Secretary Rollins, egg prices have collapsed. So we're seeing more and more. And what we want to do, the – is even that out across the – all sections of the economy.
So, inflation has been very tame. Consumer earnings were up 0.8 percent last month, which is a gigantic increase for one month. So, real earnings minus low inflation is great for the American people, and that's what we're seeing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know, because when you met with the Chinese earlier this month, and you went down from the 145 percent tariff down to about – it's like 30 percent; 30 percent's not nothing, that tax on goods coming in here.
Retailers are warning of price hikes.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, but – but – but – but…
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you go back-to-school shopping, things are going to cost more.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: But, Margaret, some are and some aren't. Home Depot and Amazon said they're not. And I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Home Depot and Amazon aren't where you go for your back- to-school shopping, when you buy your jeans, when you buy your crayons, and you buy all those things that parents…
(CROSSTALK)
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I don't know about you, but I do it online at Amazon.
This isn't an advertisement for Amazon. And guess where most of the Halloween costumes in America get bought? At Home Depot. So that's just not right. There's a wide aperture here. Different companies are doing different things. They are making decisions based on their customers, what they think they're able to pass along to their customers, what they want to do to keep their customers.
And I was in the investment business for 35 years, Margaret, and I will tell you earnings calls, they have to give the worst-case scenario, because if it – if they haven't and something bad happens, then they'll be sued.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's not always the worst case. It's the most probable case as well.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, they have to give the worst case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Walmart – there was just a piece published with the conservative strategist Karl Rove. I'm not asking about politics, because he is a political strategist, but he went in on the math here.
And he points out that Walmart has a profit margin of less than 3 percent. He says: 'If it does what Mr. Trump says, eat the tariffs, it can't break even. It can't absorb the cost of an imported pair of kids jeans with a 46 percent tariff on Vietnam, a 37 percent tariff for Bangladesh, or 32 percent tariff on sneakers from Indonesia. Other companies are in the same pickle.'
So should companies cut back on the amount of goods they have on their shelves or just on their profitability?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: That – that's a decision company by – by company, Margaret.
And I had a long discussion with Doug McMillon, the CEO of Walmart, and they're going to do what's right for them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, for consumers, the reality is, there will either be less inventory or things at higher prices, or both.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, when we were here in March, you said there was going to be big inflation. There hasn't been any inflation. Actually, the inflation numbers are the best in four years. So why don't we stop trying to say this could happen and wait and see what does happen?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Just trying to gauge for people planning ahead here.
One of the things the president said on Friday is that he's going to double the tariffs on steel and aluminum up to 50 percent effective June the 4th. How much will that impact the construction industry?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I think – I was with the president at the U.S. Steel plant in Pittsburgh on Friday, and I will tell you that the president has the – reignited the steel industry here in America.
And back to the earlier statements on national security, there are national security priorities here for having a strong steel industry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But do you have a prediction on how much it's going to impact the construction industry, for example?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I – I have a prediction on how much it's going to impact the steel industry.
And, you know, we – again, we'll see. There are a lot of elasticities that – you know, this is a very complicated ecosystem. So is it going to impact the construction industry? Maybe. But it's going to impact the steel industry the – in a great way. The steelworkers, again, were left on the side of the road after the China shock, and now they're back, that the – they are Trump supporters.
And when I tell you that it was magic in the arena, or it was actually at the steel plant that night, that these hardworking Americans know their jobs are secure…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: … there's going to be capital investment, and the number of jobs is going to be grown around the country, whether it's in Pittsburgh, whether it's in Arkansas, whether it's in Alabama.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about this big tax bill that worked through the House, is going to the Senate next.
In it is an increase or suspension to the debt limit that you need delivered on by mid-July. How close of a brush with default could this be, given how massive some of the Senate changes are expected to be to the other parts of the bill?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, first of all, Margaret, I will say the United States of America is never going to default. That is never going to happen, that we are on the warning track and we will never hit the wall.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have more wiggle room if they don't deliver this by mid-July? I mean, how hard of a date is this?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: The – we don't give out the X-date, because we use that to move the bill forward.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sometimes, deadlines help force action, as you know, particularly in this town, sir. That's why I'm asking.
The president did say he – he expects pretty significant changes to this bill, though, so that affects the timing of it moving. What would you like Republican lawmakers to keep? What would you like them to alter?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Again, that's going to be the Senate's decision. Leader Thune, who I have worked closely with during this process, has been doing a fantastic job.
And, Margaret, I will point out, everyone said that Speaker Johnson would not be able to get this bill out of the House with his slim majority. He got it out. Leader Thune has a bigger majority, and this is with President Trump's leadership. So, I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's no red lines for you in there of just don't touch this, you can, you know, tinker with that?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I – I think that they're not necessarily my red lines.
The president has the – his campaign promises that he wants to fulfill for working Americans, so no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on Social Security, deductibility of auto loans for American-made automobiles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So those have to stay in, is what you're saying.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Those have to stay in.
MARGARET BRENNAN: J.P. Morgan's Dimon also predicted a debt market crisis. Cracks in the bond market' was what he said.
You are considering easing some regulations, you've said, for the big banks. How do you avoid that bond market crisis he's predicting spreading and really causing concern, particularly with all of the worries about American debt right now?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: So, again, I have known Jamie a long time. And for his entire career, he's made predictions like this. Fortunately, none of them have come true. That's why he's a banker, a great banker. He tries to look around the corner.
One of the reasons I'm sitting here talking to you today and not at home watching your show is that I was concerned about the level of debt. So the deficit this year is going to be lower than the deficit last year, and in two years it will be lower again. We are going to bring the deficit down slowly.
We didn't get here in one year. We didn't get here in one year, and this has been a long process. So the goal is to bring it down over the next four years, leave the country in great shape in 2028.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know that the speaker of the House estimates this is going to add $4 trillion to $5 trillion over the next 10 years, and there's that debt limit increase.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well again, Margaret, that's CBO scoring.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's the speaker of the House.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: No, no, no.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He said it last Sunday on this program.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: The – he said that's the CBO scoring. Let me…
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, he said that sounds right.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Let me tell you what's not included in there, what can't be scored.
So we're taking in substantial tariff income right now, so there are estimates that that could be another $2 trillion that we are the – pushing through savings. So you know my estimate is, that could be up to another $100 billion a year. So, over the 10-year window, that could be a trillion.
The president has a prescription drug plan with the pharmaceutical companies that could substantially push down costs for prescription drugs, and that could be another trillion. So there's the four.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Treasury Secretary Bessent, we'll be watching closely what happens next.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute, so stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we go now to Republican Senator Rand Paul, who joins us from Lexington, Kentucky, this morning.
Good morning to you.
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-Kentucky): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You just heard the treasury secretary say a number of things, dismissed the potential price increases that could come from the tariffs when it comes to retailers. He also played down the cost of this tax and border bill that just passed through the House.
Do you agree with his math?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, the math doesn't really add up.
One of the things this big and beautiful bill is, is, it's a vehicle for increasing spending for the military and for the border. It's about $320 billion in new spending. To put that in perspective, that's more than all the DOGE cuts that we have found so far. So, the increase in spending put into this bill exceeds the DOGE cuts.
When you look just at the border wall, they have $46.5 billion for the border wall. Well, the current estimate from the CBP is $6.5 million per mile. So if you did 1,000 miles, that's $6.5 billion, but they have $46 billion. So they have inflated the cost of the wall eightfold.
So there's a lot of new spending that has to be counteracted. But, essentially, this is a bill by the military industrial complex advocates who are padding the military budget. There's going to be a lot of extra money.
Look, the president has essentially stopped the border flow without new money and without any new legislation. So I think they're asking for too much money. And, in the end, the way you add it up to see if it actually is going to save money or add money is, how much debt are they going to borrow?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Five trillion over two years, enormous amount.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. That was the number that the secretary was quibbling over.
The president has taken note of some of your skepticism, and he did tweet yesterday, saying that if you, Rand Paul, vote against his massive border and tax bill, the people of Kentucky will never forgive you.
(LAUGHTER)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you consider that a threat? And do you know if you have three other Republicans who will join you to block it from passage?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I had a very good conversation with the president this week about tariffs. He did most of the talking, and we don't agree exactly on the outcome.
But when I come home to Kentucky, I talk to the Farm Bureau, which is opposed to the tariffs. I talk to the bourbon industry, which is opposed to the tariffs. I talk to the cargo companies, UPS, DHL. All of their pilots are opposed to it. I talk to the hardwood floor people. I talk to the people selling houses, building houses.
I have no organized business – business interest in Kentucky for the tariffs. So I think it's worth the discussion, and it's worth people remembering that the Republicans used to be for lower taxes. Tariffs are a tax.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So, if you raise taxes on the private sector, that's not good for the private sector.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we hear from other senators who also get complaints from their – people in their districts, but they're falling in line. Do you have three other Republicans who will stand with you to block this bill?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I think there are four of us at this point, and I would be very surprised if the bill at least is not modified in a good direction.
Look, I want to vote for it. I'm for the tax cuts. I voted for the tax cuts before. I want the tax cuts to be permanent. But, at the same time, I don't want to raise the debt ceiling $5 trillion.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So I have told them, if you take the debt ceiling off the bill, in all likelihood, I can vote for what the agreement is on the rest of the bill, and it doesn't have to be perfect to my liking.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: But I can't be – if I vote for the $5 trillion debt, who's left in Washington that cares about the debt? We will have lost.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But…
SENATOR RAND PAUL: The GOP will own the debt once they vote for this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the leader, as you know, is sort of in a tight spot here. He needs a vehicle to raise that debt ceiling. Otherwise, you had to turn to Democrats to get that done.
What was the White House response when you asked that to the president?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, historically, the debt ceiling has always gone up and will always go up, and I'm not proposing that it doesn't. But the people who should vote for it are the people who vote for the spending.
Historically, all the Democrats vote for raising the debt ceiling, and about 15 big government Republicans vote for it. This will be the first time it's voted on just by Republicans. This will be the first time that Republicans own the debt. They already own the spending.
In March, we continued, not me, but most Republicans voted to continue the Biden spending levels. So, you will remember the campaign. Everybody was talking about Bidenomics and Biden inflation and Biden spending levels. Well, the Republicans all voted to keep the Biden spending levels, and that's why the deficit this year is going to be $2.2 trillion this year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you think is this bad politics for Republicans?
Some of your Republican colleagues like Josh Hawley are saying that the changes to Medicaid are bad politics for America's working people and for your party.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I think it was a bad strategy. I think the tax cuts are good for the economy. When we passed the tax cuts in 2017, the economy grew like gangbusters. We had lowest unemployment historically. It was the great achievement of Trump's first administration.
They should have been satisfied by just doing the tax part of this…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … and not getting involved into the debt part of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The last time you were with us in March, you talked about conversations you had with Elon Musk. As you know, he's just left his work with the administration.
You had proposed a rescission request, a clawback of about $500 billion from money Congress had already signed off on. We know now that the White House is going to ask Congress this week for some rescissions. Sounds like it's just $9.4 billion. And it's PBS, it's NPR and it's foreign aid.
Is this really the best strategy? And do you think 51 Republican senators are on board with it?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: First of all, I will vote for spending cuts, the more, the better. This is very, very small. To put it in perspective, if the deficit this year is $2.2 trillion, if you cut $9 billion, the deficit is going to be $2.191 trillion.
It really doesn't materially change the course of the country. We should do it, by all means, and it is the low-hanging fruit. This is the money that was pointed out that was being spent for sex change operations in Guatemala, trans opera in Columbia, all this crazy spending. Yes, it should be cut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sesame Street.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's Sesame Street. It's PBS and NPR.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Yes. Yes. And I think – yes, you're right. We will see if there's the votes to cut it.
I don't think we necessarily need government programming anymore. We have so many choices on the Internet and so many choices on television. But my preference has always been in the past to cut a little bit of everything, rather than cut a lot of something.
So what I have done in the past is propose a penny plan budget where we cut a certain percentage of everything, but it includes entitlements or it doesn't really work. Once you exclude the entitlements, there isn't enough money to cut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So you can never achieve balance by not looking at the entitlements.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The budget director on another program this morning said they may not need to use this rescission, this clawback, because the White House has other tools. Do you think they need to go through Congress? Is this overstepping?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, they absolutely have to use a recession – the rescission.
And it is done by simple majority, by Republicans only. There is no filibuster of it. So it's a great tool to cut spending. If they don't use it, it will be a huge wasted opportunity. But I will tell you, they tried in the first Trump administration. And it wasn't their fault. They sent a tiny one, $16 billion, and it failed because two Republicans went the other way.
So we will see what happens on this, but if we can't even cut welfare that we're giving to other countries, if we can't cut foreign aid welfare, I feel bad for the country. Interest rates are rising. We're having trouble selling our debt. We have got a lot of problems.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Rand Paul.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Be sure to tune into CBS News 24/7 weekdays at 5:00 p.m. Eastern for our new streaming show The Takeout hosted by chief Washington correspondent Major Garrett for your daily dose of politics, policy, pop culture and more.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation, including the new FDA commissioner, Dr. Marty – Marty Makary.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We're joined now by FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary.
Good morning.
MARTY MAKARY (FDA Commissioner): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good to have you here in person.
MARTY MAKARY: Good to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I want to get through a lot here. But one of the things we've noticed is this new Covid variant that seems to be circulating in Asia. I believe it's NB1.8.1. It's a variant under monitoring (ph). What do we need to know?
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, so this appears to be a subvariant of JN1, which has been the dominant strain. So, it's believed that there is cross immunity protection. The Covid virus is going to continue to mutate and it's behaving like a common cold virus. It's now going to become the fifth coronavirus that's seasonal that causes about 25 percent of the cases of the common cold.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you're thinking of it as like a – a – a flu-type variant? Just normal fluctuations.
MARTY MAKARY: The flu mutates about 34 times more frequently than Covid. The Covid variant mutation rate appears to be a little more stable. But the international bodies that have provided some guidance on which strain to target have suggested that either JN1 or any of these subvariants would be reasonable strains to target.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you don't seem overly concerned about that.
I want to get now into some of the recommendations that have been very specific this week from the CDC. and you, with the HHS secretary, in this video announcement on Tuesday, where Secretary Kennedy said the CDC was removing the Covid vaccine for healthy children and healthy pregnant women from its recommended immunization schedule. He then had a memo to the CDC rescinding recommendations for kids' vaccines, saying the known risks do not outweigh the benefits. Then, late Thursday, the CDC said, quote, 'shared clinical decision-making,' which I think is just talking to your doctor –
MARTY MAKARY: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should determine whether kids get vaccinated.
Can you clearly state what the policy is, because this is confusing?
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, we believe the recommendation should be with the patient and their doctor. So, we're going to get away from these blanket recommendations in healthy, young Americans because we don't want to see –
MARGARET BRENNAN: For all vaccines?
MARTY MAKARY: We don't – well, on the Covid vaccine schedule, we don't want to see kids kicked out of school because a 12-year-old girl is not getting her fifth Covid booster shot. We don't see the data there to support a young, healthy child getting a repeat infinite annual Covid vaccine.
There's a theory that we should sort of blindly approve the new Covid boosters in young, healthy kids every year in perpetuity and a – a young girl born today should get 80 Covid mRNA shots or other Covid shots in her average lifespan. We're saying that's a theory and we'd like to check in and get some randomized controlled data. It's been about four years since the original randomized trials. So, we'd like an evidence-based approach. Dr. Persad (ph) and I published this in 'The New England Journal of Medicine' last week. And we're basically saying, we'd like to bring some confidence back to the public around this repeat booster strategy theory because –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your statement was not about repeat boosters. It says, the vaccine is not recommended for pregnant women. The vaccine is not recommended for healthy children. That's different than annual boosters.
MARTY MAKARY: At – at – yes, at this point we're dealing – you know, it is a booster strategy – people would be getting the updated shot. So, whether or not a young, healthy –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But what about kids who haven't gotten the shot?
MARTY MAKARY: So, we'd like to see the data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well –
MARTY MAKARY: We'd love to see that – that – that data. It doesn't exist.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, no, no, but on a practical level. For a parent at home hearing you and trying to make sense of you.
MARTY MAKARY: Yes. We're saying, take it back to your doctor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: If their child has not been vaccinated, are you recommending that their first encounter with Covid be an actual infection?
MARTY MAKARY: We're not going to push the Covid shot in young, healthy kids without any clinical trial data supporting it. That is a decision between a parent and their doctor. And just so you – I don't know if you know these statistics, but 80 – for 88 percent of American kids, their parents have said no to the Covid shot last season.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MARTY MAKARY: So, America – the vast majority of Americans are saying, no. Maybe they want to see some clinical data as well. Maybe they have concerns about the safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I don't want to crowd source my health guidance. I want a clear thing, right?
MARTY MAKARY: The worst thing – the worst thing –
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don't go with popularity, go with, as you're saying, data. And when we look at that data –
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, so let's see the data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So, the CDC data said 41 percent of children age six months to 17 years hospitalized with Covid between 2022 and 2024 did not have a known underlying condition. In other words, they looked healthy.
MARTY MAKARY: So –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And Covid was serious for them.
MARTY MAKARY: So, we – first of all, we know the CDC data is contaminated with a lot of false positives from incidental positive Covid tests with routine testing of every kid that walks in the hospital.
When I go to the ICU –
MARGARET BRENNAN: (INAUDIBLE) CDC.
MARTY MAKARY: When I walk to the – we know – we know that data historically, under the Biden administration, did not distinguish being sick from Covid or an incidental positive Covid test.
When you go to an ICU in America and you ask, how many people are in the ICU that are healthy, that are sick with Covid, I – the answer I get again and again is, we haven't seen that in a year or years. And so, with the worst thing you can do in public health is to put out an absolute universal recommendation in young healthy kids. And the vast majority of Americans are saying, no, we want to see some data. And you say, forget about the data, just get it anyway.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So, on data and transparency, for decades, since 1964, it was the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, ACIP, that went through this panel recommendation. I mean people watched these things during Covid. The report was then handed up. It offered debate, it offered transparency and it offered data points that people could refer back to. Why did you bypass all of this and just come down with a decision before the panel could meet and make that data?
MARTY MAKARY: That – that panel has been a kangaroo court where they just rubber stamp every single vaccine put in front of them. If you look at the minutes of the report from –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Weren't they in the (INAUDIBLE)?
MARTY MAKARY: They – they even say, we were – generally want to move towards a risk stratified approach. But go –
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, why not let them do that in June?
MARTY MAKARY: So, in the meantime, we don't want an absolute recommendation for healthy kids to get it. They can do it. And that committee – committee will meet and make recommendations.
But you look at the minutes of the last couple years, they say, we want a simple message for everybody just so they can understand it. It was not a data-based conversation. It was a conversation based on marketing and ease. And – and I've written an article titled 'why people don't trust the CDC,' and it's in part from that blanket strategy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you're kind of telling them not to right now. You just said, don't trust the CDC.
MARTY MAKARY: We're saying it's going to be between a doctor and a patient until that committee meets or more experts weigh in or we get some clinical data. If there's zero clinical data, you're opining. I mean you're just – it's a theory. And so, we don't want to put out an absolute recommendation for kids with no clinical data to support it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. So, you made this pronouncement as well on pregnant women. There is data, researchers in the U.K. analyzed a series of 67 studies which included 1.8 million women. And the journal BMJ Global Health published it. People can Google it at home. And it says the Covid vaccine 'in pregnant women is highly effective in reducing the odds of maternal SARS-CoV-2 infection, and hospital admission, and improves pregnancy outcomes, with no safety concerns.'
This is data that shows that it is recommended or could be advised for pregnant women to take the vaccine. Why do you find otherwise?
MARTY MAKARY: There's no randomized controlled trial. That's the gold standard. Those 67 studies are mixed. The data in pregnant women is different for healthy versus women with a – a co-morbid condition. So, it's a very mixed bag. So, we're saying, your obstetrician, your primary care doctor and the pregnant woman should together decide whether or not to get it.
Twelve percent of pregnant women last year got the Covid shot. So, people have serious concerns and it's probably because they want to see a – a randomized trial data. The randomized trial in pregnant women –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But in the meantime, the world moves on. And you published in 'The New England Journal of Medicine' on May 20th, in that report you referenced, you listed pregnancy as an underlying medical condition that increases a person's risk for severe Covid. You said that.
So, then, seven days later, you joined in this video announcement saying you should drop the recommendation for the Covid vaccine in healthy, pregnant women. So, what changed in the seven days?
MARTY MAKARY: In 'The New England Journal of Medicine' we simply list what the – what the CDC has traditionally defined as high risk. And we're – we're just saying, decide with your doctor. We're not saying one way or the other. And the randomized trial –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But doctors want data and information as well from you and you're –
MARTY MAKARY: So, here's the data on – on pregnant women. A randomized controlled trial was set up and it was closed without any explanation. We wanted to see that trial complete so women can have information that in a randomized control trial, which is the gold standard, this is what the data shows. We don't have those data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. It is still unclear what pregnant women now should do until they get the data that you say –
MARTY MAKARY: I'd say, talk to their doctor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When do they get the data you're promising, all these controlled studies?
MARTY MAKARY: In the absence of data they should talk to their doctor and their doctor will use their best wisdom and judgement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, no data.
FDA commissioner, thank you for trying to help clear this up.
Up next, the potential impact of those new policies regarding foreign student visas.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the top Democrat on the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party, that's Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi. He's in Illinois.
Good morning to you.
I want to get –
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to get straight to it.
You heard from the secretary of state this week that the State Department is going to work with Homeland Security to aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students, including those with connections to the Chinese Communist Party for studying in critical fields. There are like 300,000 Chinese students with visas in this country. The U.S. government already has a heightened level of vetting. What's going to change?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I don't know. There's not enough details. But what it looks like that they're targeting all people of Chinese origin who are on international student visas because he's not limiting it to just people who might have ties to the Chinese Communist Party. And if they do have those ties, they don't belong here, especially if they're committing nefarious acts.
However, this appears to be much broader and it's terribly misguided and it appears prejudicial and discriminatory. My own father was – came here on an international student visa and I believe that these people are vital for our economy and for entrepreneurship in this country. And I think this is going to harm America more than help.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you said if someone has ties to the Chinese Communist Party they shouldn't be here. Does that mean all the students – the students who were children of leaders, for example, Xi Jinping's own daughter, shouldn't have been allowed here?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, if they were engaged in nefarious activities and if they are somehow deeply connected to the CCP, I think that we should be very careful. But in this particular case, they're not only going after people who might fall in that category, but it's anybody who is from China, including Hong Kong, by the way, where people are actually persecuted for various freedoms they're trying to exercise and who come here seeking to exercise those freedoms.
So, this is a terrible – terribly misguided policy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Biden administration did conduct heightened vetting, as you know, of Chinese students. Do you think that there's a legitimate argument for expanding this, that certain areas should just be off-limits?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think that you should definitely have heightened vetting, especially in certain critical areas, because we know that the CCP tries to steal, for instance, intellectual property, or worse. But the way that this is currently structured looks very, very suspicious. And you have to remember that the people that are cheering for this policy, what Marco Rubio had called for, is the Chinese Communist Party. Why? Because they want these people back. They want the scientists and the entrepreneurs and the engineers who can come and help their economy.
And so, we are probably helping them, as well as other countries, more than helping ourselves with this policy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The defense secretary is traveling in Asia right now. And he said in a defense forum speech that Beijing is, quote, 'concretely and credibly preparing to use military force.' He said their military is rehearsing.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Any attempt by communist China to conquer Taiwan by force would result in devastating consequences for the Indo- Pacific and the world. There's no reason to sugar coat it. The threat China poses is real, and it could be imminent.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He did not say what the consequences would be. Are you encouraged by what appears to be a statement of support for allies?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I am. I think what he's saying is largely correct. But I think the problem is, at the same time he says that, either Donald Trump or even him or others say other things that push away our friends, partners, and allies in the region and cause confusion. And so, we need to be consistent and thoughtful with regard to our statements and we need to be also very methodical about our actions in trying to curb military aggression by the Chinese Communist Party in the South China Sea and with regard to Taiwan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Since you track U.S. intelligence, I wanted to ask you if you have any insight into what appears to be the swarm of Ukrainian drones that has destroyed 40 Russian military aircraft deep inside Russian territory overnight. Sources are telling our Jennifer Jacobs that the White House wasn't aware that this attack was planned.
What can you tell us about the level of U.S. intelligence sharing with Ukraine right now and helping them with their targets?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I – I don't want to get into classified information. But what I can say is that it's a little bit more strained in light of what Donald Trump has said recently.
The one thing that I can also say is that Trump was right the other day to say that Putin is crazy in the way that he's going after civilian areas in Ukraine, repeatedly. And so, the Ukrainians are striking back.
At the end of the day, the only way that we can bring these hostilities to an end is by strengthening the hand of the Ukrainians. Trump should, at this point, realize that Putin is playing him and aid the Ukrainians in their battlefield efforts. That's the best way to get to some type of armistice or truce at the negotiating table, sooner than rather later.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right.
Congressman Krishnamoorthi, thank you for your insights today.
And we're turning now to the president of Wesleyan University, Michael Roth, who joins us from Monterey, Massachusetts.
Good morning to you.
MICHAEL ROTH (President, Wesleyan University): Good morning. Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to pick up on something we were just discussing with the congressman, and that is this instruction to have new scrutiny of Chinese students. But also more broadly, Secretary Rubio said all U.S. embassies should not schedule any new student visa application appointments at this time. About 14 percent of your students are international. Are you concerned they won't be able to come back to school in September?
MICHAEL ROTH: I'm very concerned. Not only about Wesleyan, but about higher education in the United States.
One of the great things about our system of education is that it attracts people from all over the world who want to come to America to learn. And while they're here learning, they learn about our country, our values, our freedoms. And this is really an act of intimidation to scare schools into towing the line of the current administration. It really has nothing to do with national security or with anti-Semitism. This is – this heightened scrutiny is – is meant to instill fear on college campuses, and I'm afraid it is working.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it is noticeable, sir, that, you know, at a time when so many higher education institutions, Harvard, Columbia, Brown, have had federal funding revoked because of their policies, we find heads of universities are fearful of speaking out. Why are you not afraid of speaking critically?
MICHAEL ROTH: Well, I am. I'm afraid too. But I just find it extraordinary that Americans are afraid to speak out. Especially people who, you know, run colleges and universities. Why – which – this is a free country. I've been saying it my whole life. I used to tell my parents that when I didn't want to do something. I would say, it's a free country. And this idea that we're supposed to actually conform to the ideologies in the White House, it's not just bad for Harvard or for Wesleyan, it's – it's bad for the whole country because journalists are being intimidated, law firms are being intimidated, churches, synagogues and mosques will be next. We have to defend our freedoms.
And when we bring international students here, what they experience is what it's like to live in a free country. And we can't let the president change the atmosphere so that people come here and are afraid to speak out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there are also some specific criticisms being lodged by members of the administration. Do you think that higher education has become too dependent on federal funding, for example, or money from foreign donors? Are there legitimate criticisms?
MICHAEL ROTH: There are lots of legitimate criticisms of higher education. I don't think overdependence on federal funding is the issue. Most of the federal funding you hear the press talk about are contracts to do specific kinds of research that are really great investments for the country.
However, the criticisms of colleges and universities that we have, a mono culture that we don't have enough diversity, that's a criticism I've been making of my own school and the rest of higher education for years.
I think we can make improvements. But the way we make improvements is not by just lining up behind a president, whoever that happens to be. We make improvements by convincing our faculty and students to broaden our perspectives, to – to welcome more political and cultural views. Not to line up and conform to the ideology of those in power.
But, yes, we have work to do to clean up our own houses and we ought to get to it. But to do it under the – under this – the gun of a – of an aggressive authoritarian administration, that – that will lead to a bad outcome.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you define some of the protests that even Wesleyan had on its campus that were, you know, critical of the state of Israel, for example, and – regarding the war against Hamas and Gaza, do you consider them to be xenophobic by definition, anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?
MICHAEL ROTH: Oh, no, not – certainly not by definition. There are lots of examples of anti-Semitism around the country. Some of them are on college campuses. They're reprehensible. When Jewish students are intimidated or afraid to practice their religion on campus or are – or are yelled at or – – it's just horrible.
But at – at Wesleyan, and in many schools, the percentage of Jews protesting for Palestinians was roughly the same as the percentage of Jews on the campus generally. The – the idea that you are attacking anti- Semitism by attacking universities I think is a complete charade. It's just an excuse for getting universities to conform.
We need to stamp out anti-Semitism. Those two young people just murdered because they were Jewish in Washington, that's a great example of how violence breeds violence. But the – the attack on universities is not an – – is not an attempt to defend Jews. On the contrary, I think more Jews will be hurt by these attacks than helped.
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Roth, thank you for your time this morning.
We'll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Negotiations for a Gaza ceasefire deal continue as the desperation for humanitarian aid grows. Our Imtiaz Tyab has the latest.
(BEGIN VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB (voice over): Gaza's Nasser Hospital, overrun with casualties after Israeli forces opened fire on Palestinians on their way to aid distribution point in the southern city of Rafah. Health officials say at least 49 people were killed and over 200 wounded, many suffering from gunshot injuries. This man's brother was killed as he waited to collect a food parcel.
'This is wrong,' he says. 'Let the whole world see this. See what the Israelis and the Americans are doing to us. They're lying to us. They say humanitarian aid, but then they kill us. Why?'
Palestinians say Israeli forces have repeatedly opened fire at aid distribution points run by the U.S. and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. An allegation Israel denies. Jeojef (ph), which didn't exist a few months ago, is staffed with heavily armed American contractors. The U.N. and other aid agencies have refused to work with the group saying it has, quote, 'militarized aid,' which goes against all humanitarian principles as innocent Palestinians continue to pay the ultimate price.
This video is of five-year-old Ward Elsheik Khalil (ph) from a week ago as she escaped the flames that engulfed the U.N. school her family was sheltering in. She survived, but her mother, brothers and sisters were all killed in the Israeli strike. Asked what happened, Ward (ph) broke down. A rocket fell on them, she said, and they died.
(END VT)
TYAB: And earlier we spoke with Ward's uncle, Iad (ph), to see how she was doing. And he told us she keeps asking for her mother and that she's in serious need of psychological support. Something not available to her or most children in Gaza.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Imtiaz Tyab, in Tel Aviv.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. Thank you for watching. Until next week. For FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.