‘Panchen Lama has no influence in Tibet' says Tibet government-in-exile head

India Today

2 days ago

In an exclusive interview with India Today Global, Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President of the Central Tibetan Administration, addresses critical questions surrounding the succession of the Dalai Lama as His Holiness approaches his 90th birthday. Speaking from Dharamshala, Tsering discusses the fundamental differences between reincarnation and succession, China's attempts to control the selection process through legal frameworks, and the assurance that any future Dalai Lama will be born in the free world rather than Chinese-controlled territories. The conversation explores India's delicate position in recognising a future successor, the historical India-Tibet relationship, and preparations for the milestone birthday celebrations.advertisement Question:there was a lot of speculation over whether if there is going to be a successor to the Dalai Lama or not. Now, that speculation has been put to rest. But in terms of the details, is it only about the trust, His Holiness's office, that is going to select the next successor? Or is it also about the area that he will indeed, be born outside of China or Chinese-controlled territories?
Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:I think this word succession and reincarnation is being used alternatively or by choice by media around the world. I would say in the case of His Holiness, there have been, of course, as we said, a lot of speculations. His Holiness has even said that this could be the last Dalai Lama. When he's asked whether the next Dalai Lama could be a woman, His Holiness says, why not? Because mothers are naturally compassionate. And then people also ask about emanation, which is appointing somebody before your demise. So emanation is more akin to succession. And reincarnation is looking more for a new soul boy or girl after the demise of the Lama. So I think this basic difference, it's important to know. And the Chinese government, of course, they have been working on this for the last more than two decades. And they have even passed a law called Order No. 5 way back in 2007, which talks about the Chinese government, the power to recognize the reincarnated Lamas or what they call as living Buddhas. And I think they have made their own plans and they keep saying that, one, they will look for His Holiness, reincarnation within Tibet or within China, not outside. So that is why this is one reason. And another reason is whenever there are talks about His Holiness wishing to visit China or Tibet or China inviting His Holiness to come to Tibet or China, they always put this precondition that His Holiness should stay back for good, for which His Holiness has always said that if I get the opportunity to visit, I will visit, but I'll not live there because there's no freedom there. And... When Chinese government says that, then His Holiness' response is that I will be born in a free world if Tibet is not free by that time. And the second thing the Chinese government talks about is using the golden urn, which was introduced in 1793 by the Qing dynasty, when they had little influence over Tibet and following that, they had their own hundred years of humiliation, as they say. So when they cannot look after Tibet themselves, then there's no question about ruling Tibet. So even then, the Qing's were Buddhists in a way because the Tibetan masters were Buddhist preceptors to the Chinese. Right now, the Chinese government is a communist government that does not believe in any religion. And there have been eight Dalai Lamas. When Chinese government says that, oh, His Holiness Dalai Lama is breaking traditions, they mean to say that we are not planning to use the golden urn. The golden urn was introduced, mainly to use it as a political tool over the Tibetans and the communist government wants to do the same thing. So there have been eight Dalai Lamas before the golden urn. So what about those Dalai Lamas? Are they not Dalai Lamas just because the golden urn was not used? Even after the golden urn was introduced, it was rarely used, only on those occasions where the Lamas have already been selected through traditional means. So that was you. And the third, the third thing the Chinese government says is that has to be recognized by the Chinese government. So a government that does not believe in any religion, forget about Buddhism, which talks about, you know, believing in the concept of life after death. That is why His Holiness always has a very humorous way of responding to this by saying if the Chinese government is really serious, they should study Buddhism and understand the concept of life after death. And if they're still very serious, they should look for communist leaders who have died, like Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping, Zhang Zemin, look for their reincarnation. Then maybe that's in a very quizzical way. Question:But Sikyong Tsering, there is a problem here. We wish a very long life to the Dalai Lama, but there will be a moment in time when you will have to then look for a reincarnate. And China is going to place one of its own, is that going to create a massive problem in how the Dalai Lama's, this institution is revered? And we've seen that in the past, dilution of other spiritual heads and languages like the Panchen Lama. Do you see the Dalai Lama also going to the same trajectory and fall in the same track? Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:In the case of the Panchen Lama, both the boys were from inside Tibet. Both the candidates, there were three candidates and two of them, one was selected by the Chinese government and one selected by His Holiness through traditional means. Yes, I keep telling the Chinese as to have not learned enough lesson from the Panchen Lama saga. As we mentioned, there was one recognized by His Holiness and Chinese became angry because His Holiness announced this first. So they just selected their own Panchen Lama. And I said in one of the conference earlier that I think Chinese government made a strategic mistake by not recognizing the same boy that His Holiness recognized. Now, in the case of future Dalai Lama, whenever the eventuality happens, then we are talking about the Tibetans selecting their Dalai Lama through traditional means in a free world. So I keep telling the Chinese, do you want a lifelong headache or not, even if it happens during Xi Jinping's time, Xi Jinping won't be there to resolve these problems. This will be a lifelong problem. But then the question is, how much freedom will the Chinese Dalai Lama have? If you look at Panchen Lama, Chinese Panchen Lama now, he has not traveled beyond Thailand and Hong Kong. Where is the influence we are talking about? Even Panchen Lama's influence in Tibet is very minimal. In traditional Tibet, just like in India, when you seek a guru, when you go to your teacher, you make offerings. But in this case, right now in Tibet, whenever Panchen Lama, right now he's in Lhasa, whenever he comes to Lhasa, they pay money to the Tibetans to go and receive him, pay money to the Tibetans to go and listen to his teaching, make it mandatory for all beneficiaries of government subsidies to attend this program, which is being forced. So forceful supplication to, Panchen Lama will not work. It will have the, you know, other effects on people. So this thing will happen. It looks more like it's given. So we are preparing ourselves in the free world, working with the Tibetans, who are the first group of community that will be directly impacted. And then looking at the larger Tibetan Buddhist world, then looking at the larger Buddhist world, and then... Internationally, in the free world, where they practice democracy, just like we have this Resolve Tibet Act in the U.S. Congress, we will be working with like-minded countries in the free world to see decisions on religious freedom and reincarnation. advertisementQuestion:What is interesting is that the fact that it's going to, the reincarnate is going to be outside of China and Chinese-controlled territories could very well mean anywhere, and the free world might not be in India. Are we looking at a situation where the Lai Lama's office could shift from Dharamshala? advertisementSikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:That, as of now, all our, we built all these institutions in Dharamshala from scratch. So to move this to another place would be huge. Instead, we won't move this task because it will need a lot of resources as well. So we don't know. It's up to His Holiness to decide where He will move it. It's up to His Holiness to decide where He will move it. He will be born in the free world, but as His Holiness said yesterday also, just before reading the statement, it is ultimately the wish of people, and the reincarnation will also have to do with the relations between His Holiness the Lai Lama and the family and the community where His Holiness will be born. So there has to be a connection of faith and supplication and all those. So that is why, professor along with me at the meet the press yesterday also said that it's premature question because his holiness keeps reassuring us that he will live for another two decades and more so these signs and you know symbols and divinations are done just before the departing from this life it does not happen 10 years 20 years before that but i think his holiness did mention about formalizing this into a structure into an institution so right now when his holiness says that there will be a continuation of the dalai lama institution also indicates that his holiness will reincarnate and that from the tibetan perspective is still a long way off of course when i when i'm asked by the media some media asks as if his holiness is going to get younger yes his holiness has no miracle you know to perform his holiness his holiness always says i'm a simple buddhist monk and his holiness ages and then of course you know affects all his activities also including international travels which has been reduced teachings which have been reduced and you know media interviews that have been reduced and long conversations so even now his holiness keeps himself very busy by meeting with more than 1000 tibetans in one week 1 000 visitors in one week about 4000, 5000 people in one week so yes we believe that is still far away off into the future and when it's the right time then his holiness will come out with whatever statement that needs to come out at that time.advertisementQuestion:right zooming out a little and talking about how the foreign policy aspect of it india has never been in a position where it had to either accept or reject the idea of who is going to be the dalai lama because we invited the sitting head spiritual head to india and hosted him for these many years this is a very unique situation india will have to prepare herself with why i say the second uh sharing is because when uh a a reincarnate is chosen in India or wherever by the trust, and when China also chooses a reincarnate, then the problem will be, can India then recognize the one who has been chosen by the trust? Or will it be neutral? How do you read the situation that India would be in? advertisementSikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:I like to believe that India will always be on the right side of history. Considering the very old historical, cultural, linguistic, and religious ties between India and Tibet, India is the only country that has been most generous with their humanitarian support for the Tibetans. And I've always said that if it is not for the government of India, we don't exist. And also on the border issues, I keep saying, India has not changed. India has not changed the name from Indo-Tibetan Border Police and Indo-Tibetan Border Force to Indo-China. That also underlies Indian government's position on Tibet. I know there are so many things on the table between India and China right now. So maybe, because we have always been realistic. We have always said that until there is a resolution with the Chinese, we'll have to reach out to the international community. But when we do reach out, then we can't expect that country, whether it's India or U.S. or any other country, to leave aside their national interests for the interests of Tibet. So we'll have to align our interests with that nation's interests so that we get more support. And we all know we have a very transparent relationship with the government of India. I'm in no position to advise the government of India, because you have a lot of smart people at the helm of affairs. And we work closely, and I'm always of the belief that India will never be on the wrong side of history. Question:We were looking through the entire support to Tibet or the cause for Tibet or the Dalai Lama from Nehru to Modi. Do you think India could have been a little more firm with China over the years? We've seen whether if celebrations India should be participating in or not. The Thank You India celebration that India decided not to participate but ended up participating. Do you think these decisions that are dependent on India's ties with China should not be the case when it comes to the Dalai Lama and that there should be a firm position on the Dalai Lama, irrespective of whether ties with China are good or bad? Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:I think it depends on the nature of celebrations that we organize, whether it's sensitive to the government of India or not. So there have been one incident which you are mentioning. But right now we have... and most probably two union ministers coming. And the Chief Minister of Anunna Sharma Pradesh, Home Minister of Karnataka, Ladakh Hill Council will have the Himachal Chief Ministers as Chief Guests for 10th December. So all these are indications of you know how it works in India without government's approval. It's very difficult for union ministers to represent. So that shows India's intention on the celebration of this Holiness the Dalai Lama. The Indian government has always said that they have treated His Holiness as a revered guest here in India. No Speech Found ! His Holiness also says, I am like a son of India. Whatever message that His Holiness is spreading to the world is based on the wisdom of ancient India. So I think considering all these close relationships, India will be very cautious. We all know that when Prime Minister Modi Ji came into office, he tried his best to build relations with China, even visiting China two times, inviting President Xi to India. To Gujarat and Mahamalapuram and all that. But despite all those efforts, then Galwan happened, Ladakh happened, all the boundary issues are still being, still unresolved. You have this dam building on Brahmaputra. So, so many incidents which drags down, you know, sometimes it looks like India-China relations are taking one step forward and two steps backward. So I want to believe that India will, will be very, very cautious in its approach to China, even now, you know, once bitten, twice shy. So I like to believe that India will be very strategic in its approach. Question:Finally, I just wanted to, again, a historical perspective. There is so much between India and Tibet in terms of cultural ties. In fact, India never had a border with China, if not for Tibet. It was always India-Tibet border. Do you think, that India could have avoided recognizing Tibet as an autonomous region, an integral part of China, that India lost that leverage so many years ago during the Vajpayee administration? Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:I think the global situation is moving very fast. It's very dynamic, very fluid. There is now less respect to international law, rewriting of global order, so many things happening. We have to keep watch over all the developments and then see how the global developments impact Tibet and also developments of relations between China and India on economic, political, security, many, many fields. So we are watching and we are studying the situation and see what are the challenges and opportunities for us, including what could be scenarios, scenarios for China in future and look into all those. So those would be things that we need to study and we have always considered India as our ally, whether they want to be more forceful, more vocal, more visible or not. It's something for the Indian leadership to decide. And we are working with the Western world in the free world. I think we have been able to move a little ahead in our agenda. And when the right time comes, I think India will also be a part of that decision. Question:July 6th is an important day since the Dalai Lama is turning 90. What are the plans for celebrations? Are there foreign dignitaries, diplomats who are also going to attend the celebrations? Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:This time, I apologize to all our friends around the world, followers of His Holiness, friends of His Holiness, that we could not send invitation for everybody because we have a very small place in front of His Holiness residence and this is monsoon season. So we cannot organize in a more open space which can accommodate more people. So based on that size, we have union ministers and chief ministers, as I mentioned, from Ladakh and others coming. We have other chief ministers coming in the days since we are celebrating this through the year. We have more programs. They also have some ten members of parliament who decided to come on their own to wish His Holiness. We have representatives from some governments, including the United States State Department, attending this program. So it's not just this occasion, but we will have many more occasions through the year. And since we are celebrating the whole year's Year of Compassion globally, His Holiness has been honored and, you know, invited by more. than there are some 1 500 awards that his holiness received and many organizations have you know he's honored his holiness so if every organization organized one one event based on the four principles of his holiness i think the message should be rather more on his holiness messages uh to the world as a human being as a religious person as a tibetan and you know looking for the preservation of the ancient indian wisdom which still has relevance in today's world when there's so much conflict going on and i think it's the time to focus on non-violence and ahimsa that are rooted in indian ancient wisdom to seek solution for all the conflicts around the world which are now unfortunately turning very violent these days and humans are causing so much distress to other humans we have to learn to live in peace with each other. Question:you're right in saying he's received many awards this but he's yet to receive the bharat ratna is that something that uh that's the tibetan community over here expects uh from the administration your predecessor certainly uh mentioned it when i spoke to him that there should be bharat ratna for the dalai lama as well Sikyong Penpa Tsering, President, Central Tibetan Administration:i have also worked in delhi for many years for seven and a half years director of tibetan parliamentarian policies since that time over the last 20-25 years this effort has been going on from prominent indians now it's for the indian government to decide from the central tibetan administration side we have not not made any effort or representation to the government of india or from the private office of his holiness because uh one award is not going to increase his holiness respectability or decrease his honest respectability but then bharat is a huge uh honor for anybody who receives it um it's for the indian government of the people of india to decide whether they should honor his holiness or not uh of course there are political considerations also so it's entirely up to the government of the people of india but we remain despite with or without bharat ratna we remain forever grateful for to the government of india and people of india.- Ends