Latest news with #Camaraygal
SBS Australia
09-07-2025
- Entertainment
- SBS Australia
Confronting the past: understanding our parent's mental health
People don't want to revisit pain, but sometimes those stories are so integral to people understanding why their parents act a certain way, Phoebe Mcilwraith Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Wing Kuang, Dennis Fang, Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what is it like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. And I'm Dennis, a second generation Chinese Australian. Wing, I've recently heard that you allegedly finished your one-year group therapy program. Tell me about it. So I signed up for this group therapy last year, because I just felt I really need to look after my own mental health, and it's one of the best decisions I've made. I got lots of insights into not only how to look after myself, but also my parents' mental health. I'm so proud of you, Wing. Do you think you now understand your parents better and where they came from? So when I started going to therapy in my early 20s, that was kind of like my first time interacting with the Western talk therapy. And there was always this fundamental idea that something that you feel right now could have its roots in your childhood. So for a really long time, I was really resentful to my parents. I was like, Yes, you did this to me, and that's why today I'm feeling this way. But the group therapy kind of changed my mind, and that's when I started to understand my parents' own childhood, which was during China's Cultural Revolution, and all of the sudden, things just make sense to me. Yes, yes. This is absolutely extraordinary, and is something I think about quite a lot, because think about all the childhood traumas that we tend to have. But when I think about my parents, they also went through the Cultural Revolution. Growing up with those traumas, what effects would that have when they grow up? Honestly, I think it might be the reason why my parents are quite closed off, why they're quite closed minded. I think this is what we might refer to today as intergenerational trauma, and it's basically when one generation, I believe, passes down their trauma, their problems, down to the next generation. This is what we're going to talk about in this episode, isn't it? Exactly. And we will be talking about our own mental health from the perspective of our parents' experience and what we could do to better look after ourselves as well as our parents. Joining us today is 24-year-old Jocelyn Chan who has been working in consulting and policy making for multicultural affairs, and she also, very interestingly, runs a book club on mental health for Asian Australians. Hi, everyone. Nice to be here today. I'm Australian-Born Chinese. My parents are from Hong Kong and immigrated around the time when Hong Kong was being handed back to China. We also have Phoebe Mcilwraith, a Bundjalung and Worimi journalist with Chinese heritage, who's been extensively covering mental health for First Nations and queer communities. jingeewallah, everyone. So yes, I'm Phoebe, and my connection to China comes through my Worimi family. So I come from a family called the Ping family, and they were based around Karuah, just north of Newcastle, if people know where that is, in coastal New South Wales. And we descend from a migrant called Yang Ping, who came over in the late 1800s and married into the Worimi family. And ever since then, we've been proud to be ABC or Aboriginal-Born Chinese. And let's start with you, Jocelyn, you have been running a book club about mental health, and you've consulted on mental health services for multicultural communities. When did you realise mental health wasn't just about yourself, but also people around you and even the broader Chinese or Asian communities? Yeah, I grew up in a predominantly white community, and was one of very few Asians at my school, and I felt very out of place, and felt like my parents were very different to everyone else, as you said, as well, like once I started understanding the things that impact our mental health, I became very angry at my parents, and I blamed them a lot for my issues. And obviously a lot of my mental challenges also came from feeling different, so I just didn't know how to embrace my culture and to be proud of who I was. I went on to study Asian Studies at university and learning about Orientalism, it kind of blew my mind. Suddenly, my whole identity made sense. I understood why, you know, I looked up to Western white cultures. What did you blame your parents for? Because I remember blaming my parents for putting leaves in my drinking water, which I got endlessly teased for. I guess it was just how conservative they were, the pressure they put on me. And I appreciate now that my parents tried really hard to. Pass on their cultural values to me, but I think at the time, you know, it was cringe. It was just not. I think there was a lot of pressure, and I didn't really understand where that came from. I didn't understand it came from the immigrant, the context of being an immigrant. Phoebe, I read a piece you wrote last year about being a mixed race, First Nations, Chinese person growing up in regional New South Wales, and one line really struck me where you said you didn't identify yourself as Chinese Australian, but you see your Cantonese heritage have had an impact on your upbringing as well as your views of the world. Can you tell us more about this? Why would you write this line? Where that line really comes from is that growing up in like a western settler colonial country, like Australia, race does play a very strong role in how we do view each other and how we do interact with each other, and especially in regional New South Wales, we can feel that a bit more obtusely right, at least that comes from my lived experience growing up. And I think one, one part of that, for example, is my first ever incidence of racism that I remember doesn't come from being an Aboriginal person. It comes from being of Chinese heritage. And it was because I was going to the local Girl Guides group, which is where you go and you learn how to knit with other girls in your community. And they had asked what I'd done on the weekend. And I said, Oh, I went down to Haymarket, Chinatown, because my mum and my nan were members of the Chinese Women's Association. And then the next week, when I went to Girl Guides, the white girls that used to sit next to me in the circle moved away when I sat down, they said to me, Well, I told my mum that you were Chinese, and she said, to be careful, because you would make me sick. So it was this really distinct idea growing up that even though I don't appear to be Chinese like other people, that this deep xenophobia happens if you just admit and you're proud of to have a Chinese heritage. So I do love my Cantonese heritage. It's brought me amazing food, cultural touch points, language within my family. But I also do have trouble with the Chinese Australian label for myself, because I know that I do move throughout the world with a bit more privilege to not have, you know, the overt anti-Asian or xenophobic like sentiment thrown towards me, but it still has quite an impact in my life, both negative and positive. I try to tread very carefully, but I'm not even sure whether that language is correct or best, like a lot of other mixed race people, we're still trying to figure that out, to be respectful of the privilege we do have, but also acknowledge the impact both positive and negative that our Chinese heritage has in our life. After getting that response, how did you respond to that? I mean, did you sort of hide your Chinese identity a little bit more. Did you embrace your other identities? How did you respond? I remember thinking it was really silly and more upsetting, because I wanted to play hopscotch with my friend at Scouts or Girl Guides. And I remember going home and saying to my parents, why would someone say that? Why would someone do this? And they had to explain racism and distinctly xenophobia to me about the history of anti-Chinese sentiment in Australia and how that would play into the way people might react to me, even though I would have done nothing wrong. And I think where I felt quite lucky belonging to an Aboriginal family is that the intergenerational trauma conversation has been a big conversation Aboriginal communities for a very long time, but also the conversation of having pride in cultural heritage despite discrimination. And so just like my Aboriginal family never hid their Aboriginality through overt discrimination in Australia, I never got encouraged to play down my Chinese heritage just because people had these opinions of me or my community, right? And so where my family encouraged me to go was that you don't need these people in your life. If they're not going to accept your Chinese culture or your Chinese heritage, you don't need them. It would be like if someone didn't accept me for having my Aboriginal heritage, right? And I think that's where I felt very unlucky. I don't think Lucky is the right word, but I felt really just humbled and passionate that I had this beautiful heritage that taught me to have pride in myself, no matter what people thought of me or where I come from. And Jocelyn, just now, you mentioned that you also have those moments where you suddenly understand your parents' experience. Tell us about those moments. How did you realise the things that happened to your parents or your grandparents still have an impact to your parents today? I think one example is last year, I went back to Hong Kong to visit my grandparents. And when I was younger, I'd go to Hong Kong. And, you know, I loved the food and the shopping, and that was kind of how I saw Hong Kong. But I think last year, when I was older, I guess Hong Kong, it's a pretty crazy city, like the amount of buildings there, so it's a bit dystopian to me, and the inequality there is pretty crazy. And seeing one side of my family they lived in. Like a shoe box, basically, and to kind of realise it's a reality that they still live. And you know, even now, with so much happening in China, I've kind of noticed, like with my parents and my friends' parents, they seem to still be grappling with it in different ways. Like I see some parents who don't want to know anything about China. They've come here, and this is their life now, they're culturally, probably being, you know, Chinese, but they don't seem to want to, you know, know that much about China, because it's not - Because of the protests (in 2019)? Yeah, I guess generally, in China, like, you know, with the things happening with the CCP, like, for me, I think there's a lot of history to kind of try and understand, like, everything that's happening. And then there's my dad now, who, I think his way of trying to make sense of it is, he wants to learn, like, as much Chinese history as possible, almost to kind of justify or to understand that, you know, what's happening is, is okay, like, and with the Hong Kong protests happening, I think my mum, yeah, just felt so helpless and yeah, just didn't know how to make sense of it. And her response has kind of been to just shut it out. And, you know, like I'm here now, I don't want to know. I sometimes wonder if they're trying to, like, protect us from it by not not talking about it. We also don't tend to be very political. And do you think that the idea of not being political came from their past living in quite authoritarian states? You know, obviously, culturally in China, it's not possible to question these things. Also, partly, being an immigrant, you kind of just accept that these are the way things are, and that you don't really think that you have a chance to fight against injustices, to be honest. Like, as much as I think everyone should care about politics, I'm starting to realize it can be a privilege to be able to engage that much, and if some people are so busy just trying to survive, like, how do you make space? You know, it is hard to make space. And through accepting these things, how do you think it's affected their mental health? To be honest, I think there's still a long way to go within the Asian community to talk about these things, even with my generation. I think that's why I started the book club when I found this book, it's called Permission To Come Home. So it's from an Asian American context. But yeah, I really think these conversations are really important. But some people, you know, as you get older, I think, and you spend time with family, you know, you might come to understand it, but I definitely don't feel like it's being spoken about enough. Phoebe, do you see any similarities and differences about intergenerational trauma between the First Nations community and the Chinese Australian community? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, I even did a little bit of work. I think something when I was thinking about Yang Ping's journey, it's reflecting on in every generation of our family, we have an oral history, and we reflect on the journeys of our ancestors, and what we can learn and take away from these journeys, but also what we might have to leave behind from them. And I think that's a very interesting discussion I see from my Elders. But when I think about Yang Ping, I think about how migration can mean the loss of so so much. It can mean the loss of family, community, language, when he came over in the late 1800s you don't go back when you migrate from a country, you don't go back to see your parents or your grandparents or the people you grew up with. You're more than likely never going to return to your birthplace or the street you went to to have your favorite meal. And I do think about the amount of migrant journeys that have had to undertake and just cop that loss, and if you don't have the language or the time or even the luxury when you're trying to survive in a new country to process that loss, what does that mean when you're telling these stories to your younger generations? What does it mean when your younger generations have questions about where you come from, but it hurts too much to answer those questions. And the exact same thing happens in the First Nations community as well. We have a very strong tradition of oral history that I think has kept some of that at bay, but also there's a lot of pain, and people don't want to revisit pain, but sometimes those stories are so integral to people understanding why their parents act a certain way, why you don't go to a certain you know, town or suburb, or why you don't talk to one side of the family. And so I think those are some of the similarities I see is that within that migration journey of young ping, there was a lot of loss for him. But also, I think something that we need to start talking about within the First Nations community is the understanding that First Nations people can also be diasporas, even though we're still in Australia. So my bun Bundjalung and Worimi family, they came to South Sydney in a huge Aboriginal migration that happened after World War Two, in which a lot of regional First Nations peoples moved to Sydney in order to find work, because there was just not enough work in the regions. And they also wanted to flee quite a bit of racism that was occurring back home, and there was more economic opportunity in a capital city, and so they had to live in these very multicultural multinational areas where you had a Bundjalung family live next to a Wiradjuri family. They spoke completely different languages. They had different histories and interactions with colonialism before coming to the city, and they had to lose something in that journey as well. And so while I think the conversation might be a bit further in First Nations communities about acknowledging that loss, acknowledging the need to even revisit those stories, even though they're painful, I think that's a conversation I'm just starting to see in migrant communities, and I think it's a beautiful conversation where migrant communities and First Nations communities can learn from each other and also help each other in that conversation and that journey. Phoebe, I know that there are lots of amazing people in the First Nations communities who try to stop this intergenerational trauma from passing down to the younger generations. What kind of approaches have been endorsed by the communities and how do they work? I think a key concept that people can integrate into their own, not just broader communities formally, but also just in their families informally, is the idea of Truth Telling. It sounds really simple, but it's a very popular kind of method and framework for not only First Nations people in Australia, but in North America, and even for different groups that had to undergo colonialism in the continent of Africa. And it's about trying to find ways to unpack history together in a way that's empowering. And so for some people, that's writing a family genealogy, for some people, that's writing articles about the experiences of them growing up or their parents and interviewing community members. But it doesn't have to be that formal. A very popular method in Aboriginal families is what we call 'Walking into the Photo Box'. And so when you go to most Aboriginal households, you'll have just these closets filled with photo albums, and a lot of that is to help tell a record and prompt storytelling when you're together as a family. So every Easter, Christmas, birthdays, sometimes just your Friday Night Dinner, you'll have someone in your family bring out a photo album, and you open and you go through the photos one by one, and it's not structured. You use it as a prompt to see what stories come out of people and what makes people feel compelled to tell you something. And I think that when we think in the context of trauma, if we allow people to let the story emerge from them naturally, especially our Elders, like our parents and our grandparents and their generation, we're going to learn so much more in this relaxed environment with these prompts than sitting down and having an interview, which could feel accusatory, it can feel a bit raw to just try to say to people what happened in your childhood that has stuck with you that you do not want to tell me. But if you sit with people and they go, "oh, here's a photo of someone I grew up with", "oh, this is the street where x happened, and actually, I don't think I've ever told you about that before". This method of investigating together, I think that's something from an Aboriginal family and an Aboriginal community structure that could benefit so many other people. Just bring out your photo albums, bring out even your phones and go, who's this at the family gathering? Who's this at the family lunch? I know you've said I've met her, but I don't think I've actually met her. You said I met this person when I was three. How are we actually related to them? These types of questions and prompts, I think could be a much more comfortable way of truth telling for some, for something that can be really difficult and painful, for some of our Elders. We do talk a lot about the negatives of intergenerational trauma, but in my experience, and what I think you just touched upon, is that it can also bring communities together. It can promote an idea of trying to preserve what they still can and that is all achieved by looking back upon the difficult times in the community's history. How have you seen this dynamic play out, the good and the bad side of intergenerational trauma? Something that I'll bring up, especially as a positive note, is so I talked earlier about the Chinese Women's Association, and that that is a group that both my mother and my maternal grandmother are members of, and the way they were prompted to connect with this organisation was because we have always known that we were Australian-born Chinese. It's something we're very proud of. We come from the Ping family, but my dad was looking through the records, and he found an immigration record that said my ancestor had come in from Japan, and my family were like, No way, no way we're Japanese, especially after we had learned about, you know, the Sino-Japanese war, and we had learned about that ever since we were children, as kind of the history of this area of the world that we come from. And we were like, there's no way we're Japanese. But the way that my family decided to address that was, Well, is there a way that we can prove that we do have this Chinese heritage? And it led to the Chinese Women's Association that do have an arm where they connect with historians that are interested in Chinese Australian history, and they come together once a month or a few times a year to listen to lectures about Chinese Australian history, and to reflect on the policy and the significant events that have affected our community here in Australia. And through my mother and my grandmother becoming members of this organisation, and then I became a member of the organization when I was 18, is that they teamed up with their historians, and they were able to prove that we do have a Chinese heritage. And then they invited my mum and my nan to join. And growing up going to this organisation was high was even though they were reflecting on some really harsh and difficult history, there was a pride in coming together and a pride in love, recognising the diversity of Chinese Australian experience too. And I really saw that in the way so many of the older aunties had taken in my mum and my nan was that they were so excited to have this other aspect of the Chinese Australian experience there. And so to me, that's one example in my own family, lived experience where in reflecting on history and being very public about the fact that you're doing these events about Chinese Australian history is that it attracted new people in to bring us together. And, yeah, I think that's something I do think about a lot, is that in looking at that history together, it actually brought the community together. Okay, the last few years, we've seen quite a few distressing events happening overseas, especially in China, and we've seen many events like the 2019 Hong Kong protests. We've seen the White Paper protests, which even in Australia, was quite notable because a lot of university students were quite afraid for their own safety. Do you think that our mental health services here are adequate in sort of dealing with this? You know, I think of everything that's happening in the world, not just in China, but obviously in Palestine. And, you know, it's hard to imagine how the mental health service can actually support looking into improving accessibility for culturally and linguistically diverse communities accessing mental health services. And (we) were looking into interpreting services, and we found that, as expected, well, interpreting services are essential for the language barrier. It's really not enough. You need cultural understanding and cultural competency. Sometimes I wonder if the you know, the talk therapy is enough to be able to process that level of trauma. And Phoebe, I want to ask you, because you've done so much reporting on mental health, especially on how the First Nations communities are taking services, and you once reported that it's actually quite difficult and challenging for them to seek services that understand their needs. At a time when Australia prides itself as being multicultural, we say that we are going to have multicultural services in our public health. Why is this still happening? The point in the reporting that you're definitely drawing on is from an amazing Aboriginal academic called Professor Corrinne Sullivan. And so she's been researching, like distinctly, the needs of and aspirations of the First Nations queer community. And what she really saw from her reporting that she told to me in a story about queer Aboriginal mental health was that you could either go to a service that was good for the queer community, or you can go to a service that was good for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community, but you could rarely find one that could actually address adequately the needs of both of your identities. It seems like from your perspective, that happens to so many other communities as well, where it's like you're almost having to pick one or the other, which part of me needs more help and support right now, and we see that coming out in research and lived experience, reporting and writing. We are a very multicultural and multilingual country, but it really appears that we're not reflecting that in our services, and they're just not catching up to the needs and the diversity that are in the community that they're serving. Where I've even had to go in my own mental health journey, I went to therapy for the first time last year. I know, woohoo, right? I ended up just having to go to a therapist that came from an ethnic background, because what I was finding is that if I went to a therapist that came from a similar culture, similar cultural background to me, they might reinforce the own biases we have in our culture, but if I went to someone that was white Australian, they wouldn't quite understand the needs to be connected to community or have these like different and specific, nuanced relationships with your parents and Elders, where I found a happy middle was finding a therapist that did just come from an ethnic background themselves, and so they didn't reinforce or reflect the bias or the assumptions of my culture back to me, but they could still slightly understand and have the foundation to empathise with where I was coming from, but that still required quite a bit of labour of me explaining things. But because I grew up in a multicultural family and a multicultural community, I kind of understood what it was like to try to communicate across different cultural barriers and try to find language that might be shared between different people. We've talked about this lightly already, but I do want to touch upon how differently our parents really reflected upon the ideas of mental health. For example, my dad, I can only think about what he was going through. He was working seven days a week to support his little new family, but he was all sending money back. There was so much pressure on him, and even as a kid, I could see that he was really struggling, and nobody in the family would just talk to him. And even today, if I think, if I brought up the idea that he should get therapy, he would just laugh at me. Could I ask both of you, how do we begin a conversation about mental health with our parents, who come from very different backgrounds? It's something that I've been thinking about for the last couple of years. How do you change someone's mind? And you know, you have researchers who literally dedicate their whole entire careers to this question, but the way I've been thinking about it recently is the practice of radical empathy, that even if someone believes something that's completely opposite to the feeling I hold in my heart to still not close off that journey. And I mean that comes back to some of the lessons that my grandmother gave me as a kid, but I've had to really bring that into adulthood, is to always keep an open door, and rather than being in combative arguments with people or debates with people, it's to model what I think is the right way to go forward, and if other People can see that the way I'm doing things is leading to a positive outcome, then maybe they'll eventually come around, because they're seeing that the proof is in the pudding. So for example, with therapy, I know it's been a huge journey I've had to undergo, particularly my father. So my father is a white Australian, but he grew up as a working class boy in South Sydney. When he went to high school, he went to a really prestigious selective school, and his family had to pull in money to buy him one uniform. And on his first day at school, the richer boys at school went around with scissors, and they would find the poor kids and cut their tie, because then, technically they were out of uniform, but they would have to struggle because their family didn't have enough money to buy another tie, and so on his first day at school, he had to get into a fight with these kids because they wanted to single out poor, working-class children. And that's just a taste of his life. Oh, my God, when we think about Dad law, he tells me another story every single year, and I'm like, Where have you been? I don't even know my own father, but he loves us very much. But when it comes to therapy, his whole idea was that you can just choose happiness, and why would you make life harder for yourself? I think that's a huge trend with all these people that have had to work through their own trauma and their own challenges, is when they want to create this better life for their children, and when they see us still being upset, they're like, No, but I've done the I've done the other thing I've been working all my life. I've been taking this extra step. Why is there still this unhappiness? I think there's almost a grief in them too, that they've done all this work, but that there's still work to be done. And so for him, instead of having these debates with him, like I tried to for years, I just started going to therapy. I just found a GP that was really supportive and lovely who encouraged me to go to therapy. And then when I went back home, he's like, you're so much happier. Why are you happier? Like, what has happened here? But when I said to him, like, I'm going to therapy every three weeks, that's probably the best decision I've ever made for my life. He's now encouraging me to go back. I've, you know, I got to a really good point. I haven't gone for 12 months. I'm starting to get stressed at work again, and on my last call with him, he said, 'why don't you go back to your therapist', which is a huge step for my father. And so I think for me, it's this radical empathy to the lives they lived, and hope that by demonstrating proudly to the people around me why I'm doing certain things, that they can start to see the results for themselves and maybe come around to a different idea too. What do you see next for our community to encourage just more people to be involved with this process? I think growing awareness is really important. Like starting these conversations, as I said, I am seeing a change within my generation, and I think, as I said, it takes time and having the privilege to have these spaces, to have these conversations, I think politically, as well as we've talked a lot about how important is to understand our histories, to understand why, you know, we have these experiences that impact our mental health. So learning more about Asian Australian history and promoting that is really important. Go to your GP and get your free mental health plan. Those 10 sessions changed my life. And you know, it did take me a long time to find a therapist that wasn't right for me, that wasn't right for the money I had at the time, but what I've gained from those sessions with that therapist will carry with me for the rest of my life. I think when we belong to such deeply communal cultures, we want the validation of each other, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's really lovely that we do care about the opinions of others. It makes us more conscientious about the impact that we have on the people around us, but sometimes. It can pull us back, and we need to know where our happy medium is, and just build these structures within yourself so you can model what you think is the way forward for yourself, your health, your wellbeing, and it might just inspire the people around you to do that for themselves. Yeah, with the community thing, I think my book club, that's a way to start having these conversations, and it doesn't always have to be explicitly therapy that can be beneficial for mental health, for example, finding Asian Australian spaces like, I know, like music, for example, might be one. I know there's a really big Asian Australian RAVE culture, I think that's a very big outlet that I think has some ties to a lot of our traumas. Doesn't always have to be specifically mental health. But finding these communal spaces. Phoebe and Jocelyn, it's been great having both of you on. if you or someone you know needs crisis support, contact Lifeline on 13, 11 14, the suicide callback service on 1300 659, 467, or Kids Helpline on 1800 5518 100. You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang, produced by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, with support from Joel Supple, Max Gosford and Bernie Nguyen. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Follow Chinese-ish on your favourite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS audio app.
SBS Australia
28-05-2025
- General
- SBS Australia
Sex-ish: The talk our parents never gave us
There is some expectation that sex should always be good... but I think there are seasons - there are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's cold. — Ronald Hoang, Relationship and Family Therapist Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. Bertin Huynh And I'm Bertin. I'm a second-generation Vietnamese Chinese Australian. Wing Kuang I'm going to bring you to an awkward chat in this episode. Bertin Huynh Really, should I be nervous? Should I be scared? Wing Kuang Yeah, because this is something that our community isn't very good at talking about it. Bertin Huynh Oh, I think I have a good idea of what you mean. Wing Kuang We are going to talk about sex and dating too. Bertin Huynh But before we get any deeper into this episode, just a bit of a content warning that this episode may contain some graphic detail. You know, this is something I never spoke to my parents about. But this week, we have two experts to help us make this conversation just a little bit easier. Wing Kuang We have Hailey Lin, who is a psychosexual therapist, originally from Hong Kong, here with us. Welcome to Chinese-ish, Hailey. Hailey Lin Hello. Thank you for having me. Bertin Huynh And I have Ronald Hoang. He's a relationship and family Ronald. Ronald Hoang Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Bertin Huynh Hailey, starting with you. Could you just tell us really quickly exactly what you do in your job? What does a psychosexual therapist do? Hailey Lin So things like sexual dysfunctioning or something like gender identity issues or porn addiction, relationship difficulties, all of that. Wing Kuang And what's your job about, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Yeah, my focus is specialised in relationships, so things like communication and connection and working through any issues amongst couples. But of course, sex also naturally comes into the equation too. Wing Kuang Since we are all of Chinese heritage, it's so universally acknowledged that Chinese parents will only want us to be doctors or lawyers or engineers. And now one of you are sex therapist and one of you are offering consultation on relationships and dating and love. What's your family reaction about your career choice in the first dance? Hailey Lin I think my mom is pretty open minded, because I have, like, this long journey. I was a beginning social worker. I work in the sexual health field, so she's kind of like, okay, you're a social worker, but you just are working with, like, some, like, sexual health issues. So she finds that's okay, because you're just helping people. And then later I told her, like, Okay, I decided to study sexology and become sex therapist. I should go, Okay, if this is what you like, go, go for it. Wing Kuang Oh, you have a really cool mom. And how about you, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Oh my mom. I'm pretty sure she still doesn't know what I do. The way she describes it is, I work with crazy people, so she doesn't fully grasp what I do, but she's accepting. I guess you could say, I mean, in my extended family, they really wanted us to be like a doctor or lawyer or a pharmacist, and all of my cousins are pharmacists, actually. But I chose to take a different pathway so to begin with, it was confusing for her, but I think she understands it a little bit better nowadays. Bertin Huynh I think that crazy word is quite stereotypical of our community, right? We don't really understand and we don't really talk about our feelings and our relationships. Does that kind of come into play, especially when you have patients that are of Chinese descent? Ronald Hoang Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that is an aspect of Asian relationships where there is either very indirect communication, where they don't really speak about their needs, or don't really speak about certain topics. They're too sensitive about certain things, or sometimes the communication can be extremely direct, like too direct, using guilt and shame to have their needs met. But of course, that does damage to a relationship. Wing Kuang I was also just wondering, because you were mentioning that your mom was still very confused about your job. Is that also just because, like, this idea of reviewing your sex life, your relationship life, to the external third party, is not really a thing in a Chinese family. Hailey Lin Yeah, even I say like, my mom was open minded and supportive to my decision, but she doesn't talk to my relatives or her friends about what I do. So they would just tell them, oh, she was a social worker now doing psychotherapy things like that. So still, like, she can be like, open minded, but also she can be like, very conservative about that, because it is not the norm in our Asian culture, like talking about sex or intimacy or those, like, kind of. Like, pirate stuff. Bertin Huynh and then, like, on the back of that, then do members of your family or friends? Do they come to you because you have that qualification when they have issues? Or is that something that you do that's the line that you don't cross? Oh, Hailey Lin People will come to me. Yeah, of course. They will come to me. And sometimes they will say, oh, okay, I really need help, and stuff like that. So when I was, like, much younger. When I just graduated, I just try to be a good person. Like to be a savior. Okay, I will talk to you about this, but later, I've learned that, okay, I should be ready to set my boundary. Ronald Hoang I wouldn't say, when I talk with my friends that I provide them with therapy, though, that I would just be providing them with my insight or opinion, and it would be a lot more direct, you know, I would tell them my thoughts, whereas working with a client may not be the same. Wing Kuang Do you get a lot of Chinese patients who come to you because they were like, oh, this is an Asian therapist, or this isn't a Chinese therapist, so they will understand what I'm talking about. Hailey Lin Yes, like I do, I do get it because I am talking about sex in that vocabulary, it can be like an alien or foreign language when you speak about your genital past or even your intimacy. So they find it very difficult to open up to, let's say Aussie or a local therapist, because of the different cultural background they feel, oh, this is very difficult to tell them, like what they truly think, or what the real struggle is. They just couldn't have that understanding towards them. But there's not a lot of options for like, Chinese sex therapists. I think that's just two or three in particular. Ronald Hoang I used to work in an organisation, actually, and I would get a lot less Asian clients, but working in private practice, I noticed that I do get a lot more Asian clients who specifically come to me because they feel and they even directly say this to me because they feel that I would get them a bit better. And so they do open up, and they do come because they feel like I can relate to their culture. Wing Kuang Without revealing any details or privacy of your clients, what's the most asked question you have got from the Chinese community? Hailey Lin Just a hard one. So I feel like, because I am Asian, we don't have this therapy culture. So when they do come to us, they're just expecting, like, something like seeing a GP, like, Okay, how many sessions? Tell me, can I get a cure, or can I get a prescription? Tell me, like, how many sessions? Like, how many calls do I have to pay you to get the result? Ronald Hoang For me, I think one theme is the theme between choosing partner loyalty and family loyalty and juggling that dynamic. You know, do I meet my family's needs versus my partner's needs, which might not meet my family's needs, and that can create, as you can imagine, some tension there. There's also often, I notice, because a lot of us are migrants and come from various places that there is intergenerational trauma that's probably a little bit more frequent than other different kinds of backgrounds. Wing Kuang So we've gathered some questions from our young Chinese Australian community. Bertin, would you like to share the first one? Bertin Huynh Okay, so the first one's very, very simple. Neville asks: why is it so hard to find the right one? Ronald Hoang I think that in modern day society, especially with the introduction of dating apps, what I feel has happened is dating has been like a commodified game. It's become a thing where people are the objects in a game. And because of dating apps, there is an abundance of choice which creates the paradox of choice, which is basically a psychological effect. The more choices we have, the sadder or more upset we are with the choice that we make. And so because of this, we've become more choosy in our relationship. So we have a list of ticking boxes that we feel like we're trying to find in our partner, and it makes us more and more choosy and makes us less and less committed to a single person, because comparison is the thief of happiness. Bertin Huynh So from my perspective, as a sex therapist, I would say there's a because I know nowadays the models of society, it has a lot of like, different format of relationship, like we talk about, like, friends with benefit. We talk about open relationships, or even, like, ENM, like ethical non-monogamy. So that's a lot of format about relationships, and you have to find the right one. It could be, like, very difficult, yeah, because you have to, like, meet people who share very similar values. So it can make this very tough. Wing Kuang And this one is from Lisa, so I thought naturally you'd feel more sexually aroused when you are at your most fertile period of your cycle. But I felt like I was the opposite. Is this normal? Hailey Lin I feel like the sexual desire is case by case, like every person, like every person is different. So Some people, they feel like having, like, more sexual desire, because of the hormone, like when the ovulation happens and when you have your menstrual child cycle, because all the body hormones are fluctuating. So that's why you feel this urge to do something. We are all Chinese, but we have, like, different body quality or whatever, or different personality. And that's like, No. Wing Kuang And is it true that if you are having sex with your true love, the sex is much better? Hailey Lin Yes, yes. Because there are two aspects. One is very physical. It's more about the reflexogenic. And another part with sex is psychogenic, so it's more psychological, more emotional, and more about that, this deep connection, so you can actually have sex or make love. So I would say making love is like, like, more like a mindful feeling. Ronald Hoang I do also think that there is some expectation that sex should always be good, especially with your partner. And I think that's a myth, that's a very destructive myth that we can hold if we're rigidly holding to this idea that sex should always be amazing and passionate, but I think there are seasons, you know. There are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's, you know, cold, and then, you know, and then there are other times when it's, you know, spring or autumn, when it's kind of lukewarm. Wing Kuang You said something that really struck me, Ronald, about like, sex even with your partner, is not always good, because my idea about romance and also sex pretty much come from all the trash fictions online, especially when I was still studying in China during my high school, like there were just so many, like, random fan fiction like nowadays, like looking back, you will feel that it's not biologically correct, like in the way how they describe all the sex scene, but this idea of having sex with someone you like is always good, has just been in my mind so long. So when I actually had my first sexual experience, it was actually really painful. What's more painful for me later is I didn't know where I could learn about this pain, so I actually just googled it. Now, looking back as a 28-year-old self-claimed independent woman, I was really surprised that even though I came to study abroad, sex is still such a big shame for me to talk about it, or even to just, like, Google it, like, I remember when I was Googling, I was like, oh my god, I would never, ever expect that I would do this one day. Is that something that's common to you when you are talking to your Chinese clients? Hailey Lin Yeah, I think that's very common. And I think like, like, across, not just Chinese, across the old Asian cultures, that's a, like, a huge gap in the school sex education. They just talk about biological stuff, but they don't tell you, Hey, how to give consent to help your first sexual experience. Or they don't talk about pleasure. They just talk about abstinence. Like, don't do this, don't fall in, like, pregnancy, protect yourself, use condom, just all about that. But sex is something that we need to learn. We need to build up, a skill we need to practice, but that no one tells us, and our family, our parents won't do, and our friends maybe they don't have, like, a lot of experience there as well. Wing Kuang Is that, like a common feeling you have to counter with your clients as well? Ronald Hoang Yeah, I think it is. Like shame is a weapon that's often used, I think, in Asian culture and when we feel shame, shame is a feeling that we get when we're kind of telling ourselves that we are a bad person. And the following action tendency of shame is to hide, to withdraw because you're such a bad person that you don't want other people to kind of be around you and see you for the badness that you are. So I actually appreciate you actually sharing that story, because you're actually breaking that and you're doing something different, and that's the healing. Wing Kuang Bertin Huynh That actually kind of reminds me of my experience. I'm a gay man, so having not even come out of the closet? Yeah, I didn't even have friends to talk to. And, you know, parents are definitely off limits there. And then I guess the one thing you turn to is the only kind of representation of sex or gay sex that you have, which is pornography. So that really leads me to this next question from Doris. She was wondering if people who consume lots of pornography, lots of content like that, does that affect their perception of enjoyment of real people? Hailey Lin Absolutely. Because, like people usually the major source of what their sex education is actually through pornography and because, in porn, like, they don't talk about consent, like they wouldn't speak about, hey, do you want to have sex with me? Yes or no, they don't teach you something like that. Ronald Hoang Porn is entertainment, not educational. It's just purely entertainment. It's edited, scripted, and is not a representation of real, committed sex and relationship. Hailey Lin Nowadays, a lot of people really notice, like, this huge issue with a pornography. So nowadays we do have, like, something called ethical porn, so like, then we can learn more education. Should know, like how to masturbate or how to help like intercourse, but I think that is a better trend that can literally, like, change the world a little bit. Bertin Huynh The next one is a voice note that was sent in. It's from Amy, Amy Hi, I'm Amy. Are we seeing a growing trend in certain relationship types in the Chinese Australian community, such as open relationships or polyamory? And what are the factors influencing such trends? And if so, how? Do Chinese cultural values tend to inhibit this individual's pursuit of these relationship types polyamory, for example, how likely or how challenging is such an arrangement to work feeling? Hailey Lin That's also a misconception, like, okay, only Asian or Chinese people find it challenging. But the fact is, even for Western people, they still find it challenging too, because it is against mainstream culture. It's not about like, okay, open your relationship, and then I can have a sex with other people . Oh, that's amazing. But it's not like that. It's just a lot of power dynamics, a lot of relationships, like agreement, or even, like the contract between two of you. Wing Kuang I actually find both of you share a very strong common point, like when you both talk about sex and dating professionally, in answering these questions, you often mention a phrase, this is actually not exclusive to the Asian community. Why do you feel that this is not excluded to the Asian community? Hailey Lin Yeah people think like certain cultures, Chinese culture means that you're conservative, or even like you feel sexist taboo. But sometimes, like even some like Chinese client, they come to me like they can be in an open relationship, or they can be, like, doing sex work or whatever. So I don't want people to have this, like, assumption, pre assumption, or a stereotype about, like, okay, Chinese people should act like that. Ronald Hoang Yeah, and I think it's our line of work. So the Asian couples, or Asian people will come to us and talk about these things, but it's actually extremely normal, like so many Asian couples and all these couples, they're struggling with the same thing. It's just perhaps this taboo that it's something that we can't talk about with our friends or out in the community. It's something that we shouldn't touch. That's probably the perception that it's maybe giving other people who don't work in mental health. Wing Kuang Earlier you were talking that actually, Chinese people are not that conservative because they actually will turn to you for professional help, but it's just always these stereotypes. Even one of our friends, when they are typing this question like, they start with like, yeah, "compared to Australian culture, Chinese culture seems to be, indeed, a bit more conservative". How do you find that being in these intersected environments affected our views on sex and dating? Hailey Lin That's really difficult, right? You have to juggle between, like, your own news like your original family, and then like, this is the thing that I learned in this society, or this is my upbringing, like in Australia. So that's the contrast. This is really about communication. I would think, how do you have a good balance with your life and also respectfully, let your parents know. Okay, this is your expectation. This is an older generation, like, extended back in your days, but now we are like, like, in a different society, different roles. Ronald Hoang It's a bit of a tug of war, isn't it? This idea of what Western society might be telling us, this is our Asian culture or our family, and I think it comes down to our values and what we value and how we want to live our life, and that also relates to relationships and sex and intimacy and to be living our values in a way that is authentic. Bertin Huynh You know, when we were collecting these questions, the people who were most open to asking them were women. And so we were also kind of wondering if, if men, or straight men in particular, or even straight Chinese men, if men have an issue talking about relationships, about sex, about dating? Ronald Hoang I think they probably would, on some level. I can imagine, because there is a sense of lack of competence. If they were to come out and say, hey, I'm having trouble with this, then it's like I'm less of a man, which is obviously not true in an issue. But I can imagine for some men that that would be a barrier for them. Hailey Lin Talking about this problem or issue that having in sex or even my performance can kind of, like make me less of a man, or even like impact my sense of manhood. Yeah, that can be a great barrier. Would that also because, like, this is a theory from one of my straight Chinese male friends, who was like, saying Asian men on dating apps just has no advantage. So you are, like, always the group that no one's gonna pick. Do you see that this is probably contributing to, like, why they are not opening up? Or what are your thoughts on these theories about? Like, oh, Asian men just are not attractive. Hailey Lin I think that's an interesting question, because I do believe, like people, they have different preferences. Some people prefer the same culture. So maybe if, like, they are local, like Australians, so they might want to date Australians. Or some people, like, Oh, I'm Asian, I like to date Asian. So it's about choices and preferences. Ronald Hoang And it could be a little bit of like, having a minority mindset where they're putting themselves down and counting themselves out already. Bertin Huynh Where does the line then exist between racism, preference and then fetish? Hailey Lin Fetish is something like, more like a non-conventional or non-traditional kind of sex. So if you have a fantasy towards an object or something like more extreme or more kinky, you call it a fetish. Ronald Hoang It can also, I think, maybe depend on what context, because for me, racism is about superiority and the power dynamic, where someone is demonstrating that they are more powerful or superior in some way to another person. So you can have a preference and just say, because it's just not my preference, it's not my cup of tea. But if it's because, well, because I just can't stand this Asian or this particular culture, because they do this or, you know, there's a sense of, my culture is better than yours, and that is racism. Hailey Lin And it also depends on the belief. So if a guy thinks, like, okay, all Asian women, they are submissive, they are like a good baby girl. And so that's why I picked them. I like to have sexual contact with them. So I think that's more like racism because of the theory of total assumptions that all Asian women can only be submissive and cannot be dominant in the sex play. I think that's racism. Wing Kuang Final question: to our young audience from the community, what's your advice to have the best sex and relationship? Hailey Lin I feel like echoes to what Ronald just brings out like at the beginning of our recording. Saying this is a misconception or myths about how sex with your partner must be, or always should be good. I feel like as a sex for a bit, I would say like good enough. You'll have frustration in your sex life, in your intimacy, but always remember, like enough sex. So sometimes we allow ourselves, I'm like, okay, below average sex, but sometimes also bring some novelty into your sex life. Because this is a human brain. This is human nature. We all like new stuff. Ronald Hoang My tip would be communication. Communication, communication. Because I think not only is communication a huge aspect of relationships, but it also is part of sex as well. And I think the research shows that the couples who have more sex are the ones who talk about it. So if you want more sex, just talk about it openly. It doesn't have to be something so serious. Wing Kuang I will put that on my dating app profile, on "who am I looking for" (section). "open to talk about sex to me at least three times a week". Bertin Huynh That's a good one. Thank you so much Hayley and Ronald for your wisdom today, and hopefully we've made that conversation a little bit easier to have. Hailey Lin Thank you. Lovely to be here. Ronald Hoang Bertin Huynh You're listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, produced by me and Dennis Fang, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favorite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.
