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ABC News
7 days ago
- Health
- ABC News
How Turia Pitt's body image changed in motherhood
Turia Pitt was running an ultramarathon when a grassfire caused burns to 65 per cent of her body. She lost seven fingers and had a long recovery involving more than 200 surgical procedures. Turia had to get used to a completely different body. "I didn't like looking in the mirror. I didn't like when I saw my arms, I saw my legs, because it was so different to what they used to look like," the 37-year-old from Byron Bay/Bundjalung Country says. "When I would get changed, I would shut my eyes so I wouldn't have to see myself." Having children changed that for Turia. Particularly the birth of her second son, which she says helped her focus on what her body can do, rather than what it can't. "I felt like it was transcendent. That I'd accessed all of these generations of ancestors that I have in me. That I was a strong woman. That I was a capable woman. That I could do hard things." Turia says we can all think of things that our body is "shit at", or we don't love. "But I remind myself, your body has given birth to two sons. You've been pregnant with them. You breastfed both of them. "Your arms carry them. Your legs walk them to school. You can hold their little hands, you can brush their hair, you can read them a book, you can make them dinner. ABC podcast Ladies, We Need to Talk spoke with Turia and other women about putting aside the unrelenting "bounce back" beauty standards after birth, and embracing an opportunity to change their relationship with their body instead. When researcher Zali Yager studied how women felt about their bodies after birth, she was surprised to learn those with young kids felt better than women with no children. "We thought that women who had just gone through the process of growing a belly, giving birth, breastfeeding, the whole thing — we thought that they would be the most dissatisfied with their bodies, but actually they were much more likely to be appreciative of their bodies." Dr Yager is the executive director of the Embrace Collective, a charity focused on building better body image. In her research with Victoria University, she found those with young children had less body shame and less self-objectification (thinking of your body as something to be looked at, rather than something that is functioning). "It just seemed to be this protective effect, like 'Oh my gosh, my body has actually done something'." The effect wains, however, as kids grow. "I think the main reason is that, when we've got that tiny baby with us, they're kind of attached to us most of the time, and everyone can see that that might be the reason why your body might be different," Dr Yager says. As time goes on, the pressure to "bounce back" increases. "The whole idea that our body should go back to what it was before going through that enormous process is ludicrous," Dr Yager says. Sophie Walker, founder of the Australian Birth Stories podcast, says being pregnant was the first time she felt she could "let it all hang out". The 44-year-old from Melbourne/Naarm has three sons, aged six, nine and 11. "I'd spent so many years holding my stomach in and trying to squeeze myself into Spanx and things. "I loved that time of … everybody loves you being big." Growing up, Sophie was often bullied in school for her weight. But in motherhood, she has been able to embrace the changes to her body. Including the "intense stretch marks". "[My body] housed these three wild boys. On the odd occasion she does find herself being critical of her body, Sophie says she reminds herself of how many women would want to trade places. "We've just interviewed so many women [on the podcast] that have just strived to become mothers, and they would be so envious to have a deflated belly and saggy boobs right now and a baby that's kept them up all night." Tegan Russell is mum to a four-year-old girl and four-month-old boy. The 38-year-old from Melbourne/Naarm says while her "belly might look a little bigger" than she would like, it was her "baby's house". "And would I take that back? Never in a million years." Tegan says being pregnant was the first time she felt really confident in her body. After birthing her daughter, Tegan says she felt proud of her body. But taking a newborn home in the middle of Melbourne's COVID lockdowns was tough, and Tegan says she had unrealistic expectations about what she should be able to do in those early post-partum days. With her son, though, Tegan made sure to create space to heal and rest. "I really rested as much as I could on the couch and took care of my body, and really tried to respect it as much as I could for what it had done." She even had a post-partum doula come and provide care, including a "closing of the bones" ritual. "For five hours she just absolutely loved on me. She gave me this beautiful massage ... I sat in this gorgeous steam tent that she'd built and had a beautiful herbal bath." Tegan says it felt like the "ultimate kind of feminist act". "We're told, after we have babies, in lots and lots of different ways, about bouncing back. "You know, who can get to the cafe quickest, who can go to the gym quickest, and those things are fine if that's your choice. "But I also think it's important to know that there are other ways and the choice to stay home and to make sure I had this beautiful postpartum care felt like I was really taking something back and saying, 'Actually what I have done is worth this'. "My relationship with my body has gone from seeing it as an ornament to seeing it as an instrument."
ABC News
14-07-2025
- General
- ABC News
Why resentment doesn't have to mean the end of a relationship
Yvonne* first hooked up with her now-husband on the sticky dance floor of a nightclub on a balmy Sydney night when they were both 23. She felt safe with him, like she'd known him for years. They dated, got married and when the couple had their first daughter, Yvonne left her full-time job as an accountant to look after her. That was when her resentment to her husband started to build. "I took a year off and he just continued his own life. His life was still golfing and playing squash and staying back for a few drinks on a Friday night, where I'm at home just getting on with that," Yvonne tells Ladies, We Need To Talk. "The second [child] just kind of added that extra layer of stress." By the time their third daughter was born, Yvonne would try to raise the issue of her husband sharing the mental load but they would end up butting heads. He did not seem to notice the burden that she was carrying. And while there were good times, the same patterns kept repeating. "He thought he did a lot by changing nappies, and he did help at night to settle them. But it was all the other stuff, like thinking about getting out the dinners, who has the nappy bags, what are we doing on the weekend?" Yvonne says. "That mental load is because you are thinking of three other humans, yourself, and sometimes your husband as well." Yvonne and her husband sought help over the years, doing talk therapy as well as trying tactics and systems to share the mental load. But Yvonne began to notice a pattern in her husband's behaviour: He would pick up the slack while the inspiration was running hot but then it would go "out the window", she says. "I just felt like I'd tried everything, and then it just wouldn't stick." Things reached a crisis point last year. One particular incident became a catalyst for Yvonne to look for the exit. "My husband smacked my daughter, and we've always agreed not to handle the girls in that way. And it was just that step too far for me," she says. "We tried to repair, we tried everything. And I said, 'look, with all the history … I've grown, I've left you behind. We need to separate'." So they did. Yvonne and her partner tried "bird nesting", where the children stay in the family home and each parent stays elsewhere and takes turns looking after them. But she says "there was still that underlying resentment." When a romantic partnership reaches this point, it's usually over. But for Yvonne and her husband, it wasn't. So what happens if a couple chooses to stick it out and fight for the survival of their relationship? And what does it take to bring it back from the brink? Sex and relationships therapist Toya Ricci is used to seeing couples at their wit's end. By the time they come and see her, the little sores of annoyance have turned into full-blown open wounds of resentment. "Resentment is so sticky, it's so hard to get rid of," she says. "A lot of it comes back to a deep-seated hurt that's been repeated over and over again. I think couples often have the same argument, but it just gets attached to different things." Ricci says that often couples might be fighting about, say, which partner should be emptying the dishwasher, but what they're really arguing about is the deeper feelings underneath. She says there are ways to fix any relationship in need of resuscitation. But what can be needed is something as drastic as "relationship death," especially in cases of infidelity, or where trust issues or long-term frustration fester. "Because you can't go back to the relationship that you had before," she says. "That's gone. But maybe that's OK. [The question is] how do you want to build a new relationship?" By the time a couple gets to therapy, they can be ready to lash out at each other in front of a willing listener. But if resuscitating the marriage is the aim, Ricci says both sides must be willing to listen to each other and make concessions. "I think everything comes down to what our insecurities are and what we need to feel safe. So what do they [each partner] need to feel safe?" she says. "I usually start with their motivations. Like, why do you want to stay in this relationship? What's the benefit? And a lot of times it comes down to, 'oh, because we really love each other still and we want to make it work'. If you want to make it work, that's what helps you put in all the really hard work." Ricci thinks that part of this hard work of repair involves being invested in the other person and their wants and their needs. "I think a lot of times in long-term relationships, what dies is curiosity about the other person," she says. "You should always be curious about your partner and where they're at and what's happening. So you never think that you have them completely figured out." And while people might have preconceived ideas about what resentment means for the viability of a relationship, Ricci says it's more complex than it appears. "Our scripts are that it's always black and white and it's always a disaster ending. But there's so many different people who have previously thought, 'I would never tolerate it', and they are able to come back from it." Once Yvonne decided that she wanted to separate, she tried talking to her husband about their options. But he did not want to split. "I didn't feel happy and felt very alone. I said we need someone to help us navigate this stage," she says. The pair found a marriage coach whose approach felt unorthodox. "She's like, 'OK, you're going to need to have relationship death,' which is basically chucking the old marriage in the bin, because that didn't work for us," Yvonne says. "We were going into this grey zone — so you're not together, you're not married, but you're not going off shagging other people either." Yvonne and her husband weren't living together and did not talk for months, except when necessary for taking care of their children. For Yvonne, this was a time of rebuilding herself. "I was such a shell of myself coming out of that marriage, like I was just so depressed. My confidence was low. So it was just finding myself again and finding out who I actually am and reconnecting with that. And that was so empowering," she says. The time apart was similarly positive for her husband. Soon, Yvonne started coming home to a clean and spotless house. And she found out he had been waiting by the phone hoping that she would ring up for a date. After six months apart, the two met up face-to-face. Yvonne was prepared to divorce but her husband proposed another option. He repeated that he loved her and wanted to be with her. He also agreed he would walk away if that's what would make her happier. The choice was hers. "And I just froze and … there was just something in my body just saying: no, no, no," Yvonne says. "And I said, no, that's not what I want. We've got all these new, amazing tools. I want to move in together and try them." Yvonne told their marriage coach that she felt like "a fraud" for appearing to backflip on her earlier resolve. "And she said 'Well, that's relationship death'," Yvonne recalls. That decision has been part of the next stage of the couple trying to repair their marriage. "[The resentment] it's there. I still get it day to day, but like anything it's about working through it." She says there have been changes in her husband to show that he respects her in a meaningful and true way. "He now hears me," she says. "He would always try to come in and fix it, or try to put his opinion on what I think. "Now I can say, 'honey, I do not feel heard'. And then he'll just take a step back and he'll be like, 'OK darling, I hear that you're feeling overwhelmed'. And then, [he'll] just [give me] that validation of, 'I see you, I hear you'. Yvonne and her husband have been back together for seven months. Yvonne knows that her marriage might be out of ER, but it requires ongoing health checks. "We're constantly working on things," she says. "It's always going to be ongoing but that's the amazing thing, because we are modelling this for our girls; how to repair, how to communicate effectively. And hopefully seeing them bring it into their relationships one day. "But for my husband and I, I just hope our relationship only becomes stronger and deeper and we have a long life together." *Surname withheld to protect privacy
ABC News
13-06-2025
- General
- ABC News
Loneliness — you're not alone, from Ladies, We Need To Talk
Sana Hello, it's Sana here. We're doing something a little bit different on All In The Mind this week. You are a fan of the show, right? So you know that we like to dig deep on the mental health challenges that people are going through. So I wanted to share an episode from our friends over at the ABC podcast, Ladies, We Need To Talk, about loneliness. It's a topic right in our wheelhouse, and in Australia, about a third of us feel lonely. That's according to the 2023 Ending Loneliness Together report. And on top of that, many of us are embarrassed to talk about it. But at All In The Mind and at Ladies, We Need To Talk, that is what we do. We talk about the stuff that can be sometimes tricky to open up about, so that all of us listening can feel hopefully less alone. So here's the episode. Sandy You can't say, hey, I really feel lonely at the moment or I don't feel that connected because it's not something we talk about in society. Sofie It feels pretty shit. It just feels like your heart hurts, your chest Bella hurts. From the outside we could look like a very sociable person who potentially has it all, but feel incredibly lonely. Sandy You can feel lonely when you're surrounded by people. Yumi It's like 5.40am and I'm just getting in my car to drive to meet some friends, to go for a run this morning. So it's still pitch dark outside, which is how I like it because it's too hot otherwise. And then you get the most glorious sunrise as you're running. There's my friend's car. Once or twice a week I get up at the crack of dawn and I drive in the dark to run between 7 and 10 kilometres. Alright, what do I need for this run? I started this running group during COVID lockdowns because I was ashamed to discover that I didn't really know any people who lived close by me. Morning. Hey, what happened? Do you remember Val? Hey. It's not as humid, is it? Like I have friends, but none of them lived all that close by and none of them wanted to go running. So I reached out and made the first move with people from my neighbourhood and now there's a small group of us who meet up for runs. Look, there's the sunrise. Shall we try and sprint that last, after we get around the corner? Sometimes followed by coffee, sometimes not, and there's always a lot of chat. Sofie The endorphins at the end of running are just a bit like jumping in the ocean, you just never regret it. Sandy Well, you know, it's a shame if you don't get out of bed and drive. Yumi Having this quite wholesome thing in common with people has helped me through some tough times and the friendships that I've made with my fellow joggers are super dorky and have nothing to do with work and the whole thing has made me feel way more connected to my community. The sad truth is we're lonelier than we've ever been. In Australia, almost a third of us feel lonely. That's according to the 2023 Ending Loneliness Together report. There's a sense of shame around our loneliness. More than half of those who feel lonely do not talk about it. And loneliness doesn't just feel awful, the science shows it's really bad for our physical and mental health. So why, in this hyper-connected world of WhatsApp group chats and being only a few swipes away from a shag or a pash, why are we lonelier than ever? And what can we do about it? I'm Yumi Steins. Ladies, we need to talk about loneliness. Sandy It was just torrential rain and the first Uber cancelled on me. Then the second Uber cancelled on me. Oh no. And then the third Uber, I was just so desperate. I rang him, I said, please tell me you are on your way. Yumi This is Sandy. She's waiting for a ride and the rain is hammering down. It's her 50th birthday. Sandy I got out and I got into the bar and I just sat there by myself and ordered myself a lovely glass of champagne. And I actually said to the bartender, I said, it's actually my birthday. And he said, oh, happy birthday. And I said, thank you. And besides my son at home and my son who called me from overseas, no one really sort of said anything. I didn't feel I could ring anyone. Yumi So I have a real picture of you at this bar looking great in your birthday outfit with a glass of champagne in hand. Sandy Even thinking about it now, I get emotional. It was very hard not to be upset and just having that sinking feeling in your gut. And for me, I feel it in my chest as well, almost like I'm forgetting to breathe. And it's a mixture of feeling upset, but also feeling embarrassed. And that sense of shame that I'm 50 and I'm at a bar by myself. And my husband's overseas. And I spent the morning with my dog and my cat. Yumi And predictably, the family pets had not organised a surprise party nor a birthday cake for Sandy. Those pets are rubbish. But there's nothing like sitting in a bar alone on a really important milestone birthday to make you reflect. Sandy I thought to myself, I would just love to have a group of friends. I know people and I have friends, but I don't have that, you know, sex in the city, we're so close or that, you know, we went to high school and we're going to celebrate every birthday together. And I was just like, you know what, I'll just sit here and just have my champagne. Yumi How were you feeling in the lead up to that big milestone? Sandy I was dreading it. My husband had at the last minute been invited to go and do a management course. And it was the week of my birthday. And I wasn't going to say no, but I was dreading it. And I just really would have liked to have just slept through it. And I still remember the day before thinking to myself, I've just got to get through it. And I'd taken the day off work and I thought to myself, why did I bother? I've got nothing planned. I'm pretty sure he hasn't planned anything. Yumi Sandy comes across as someone completely together. Sandy When you meet my husband and I and you see our boys, we look like we have everything and we look like we're a great couple and we're super happy. Yumi Throughout her marriage, Sandy has kept herself busy raising her boys, supporting her husband and working. Sandy But for me, there is this sense of loneliness where I feel like there's a disconnect. Yumi One of the kids has left home already and the other isn't too far from going. And Sandy's been forced to think about what her life will look like afterwards. Sandy I'm at a point now where the boys don't need me very much, but I'm sitting here going, oh, what do I do now? Yumi A lot of women have written to us saying they feel lonely in their marriages. You know, you're married to this person, but you're actually lonely a lot of the time. Does that resonate for you? Yes. Yes. Do you still sleep in the same bed? Sandy Yeah. Yep. But there's no sort of like kiss goodnight, no sort of cuddles or anything like that, which I've just gotten used to. Yeah. As sad as that sounds. Yumi Can I ask you, do you feel like you've moved further apart from each other as your marriage has gone on or is it just sort of always been at this distance? Sandy I think we've moved further apart. But I think if you asked my husband, he would not acknowledge that. He's not someone that shows emotion or will give you a hug. And sometimes I just crave that. Yumi Outside of her marriage, Sandy works, she goes to yoga and she has friends, but she doesn't have those ride or die friends. Sandy And I at times can't figure out why, because I do think I'm pretty easygoing. I'm easy to get along with. I am social, but for whatever reason, it just hasn't happened that way. Yumi And admitting to others that you're lonely, that can be pretty awkward. Sandy I was having a particularly tough day. So I went to yoga, not feeling great, but hoping that by getting on my mat, I would feel better. And my friend at yoga, she said, how was your weekend? And I said, not that great. How was yours? She said, oh, we went for a long lunch. And said, that must have been lovely. I said, you know, sometimes I find it really hard to meet people at this age and I feel lonely. And she looked at me sort of wide-eyed and I looked at her wide-eyed and I thought, oh, shit. I've made myself really vulnerable here. And she said, oh, yeah, it can be slightly difficult. Oh, yes. Okay, I've got to go to work now. I'll see you later on in the week. And I just grabbed my mat. Oh, and I just raced out the door. And I could feel myself getting red and just feeling hot in the face, like, why did I say that? Bella Loneliness is stigmatised. A lot of us don't want to admit we're lonely still. Yumi Dr Bella Ingram is a clinical psychologist and postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Wollongong. Bella If we look at national data, even the general public perceives that, you know, someone who admits they're lonely, there must be something wrong with them. Yumi Bella's research focuses on loneliness and the role of social connections in health and wellbeing. Bella In Australia, we're predominantly a Western culture, which is quite an individualistic culture. And that's pretty terrible for loneliness. Yumi And the research shows unequivocally that women are lonelier than ever. Bella What we know about loneliness is that that really comes about when we kind of have these shifts in identity and when we're undergoing life transitions. And a woman who's sort of trying to navigate a career path, for example, and also trying to navigate parenthood and perhaps a carer for elderly parents as well, there's a lot of roles in there. And so trying to figure out where there's time and space left for social relationships, that kind of often falls by the wayside. Yumi And it turns out that loneliness is making us really sick. Bella So there's a lot of research out there now that talks about loneliness being linked to, you know, high risk for morbidity and mortality. It's worse for us than smoking and obesity. And the reason for this, we think, is that loneliness is linked to cortisol, the stress hormone. And so when we're lonely, our cortisol increases and this reduces our immune system. We know that cortisol is also not great for weight. It's not great for a range of things. And so that's one of the theories behind why loneliness impacts our physical health. Yumi The research shows a particularly strong link between loneliness and cardiovascular disease. Bella When we're lonely, we might be more likely to drink alcohol. We might be more likely to binge eat, to comfort ourselves. And all of these kind of behavioral risk factors, what we call them, are also really big contributors to heart disease. Yumi And yeah, I can almost hear you saying, yeah, duh, Yumi, because loneliness, of course, hurts our mental health too. Bella Loneliness and depression are really intertwined. Loneliness and anxiety are really intertwined. And we know that people who are lonely tend to experience poorer physical and mental health. But also it's the people that might also have existing mental health conditions or existing physical health conditions that are also more likely to experience loneliness. Ah, so it's a cycle. It's a reciprocal cycle and it's a nasty one. Yumi What are the measures of loneliness? Bella It's a really tricky one. A lot of scales don't necessarily use the term lonely. They kind of dance around it a little bit. And I think that's still this big question mark is how do we know if I asked you, Yumi, how would I know if you feel lonely? There's going to be a range of different reactions that we have. So some women, they might completely withdraw and maybe no one will notice. For other women, they're going to power on and act like nothing's going on and they might not even know they feel lonely themselves. Yumi Yeah, I just felt really confronted when you asked me how do I know when I feel lonely because it's very hard to describe. I think the last time I felt really lonely was years ago because I've got so many children around me. I'm sort of always in company and feeling quite loved. But I remember the feeling of my bed, the space in my bed next to me being empty and it's being very symbolic of the emptiness inside of my heart. Do you know what I mean? Like this yawning great big expansive bed that nobody is sleeping next to me. But yeah, how would you put that into a survey that is specific to different individual experiences? Very tricky, very interesting. Bella So what we know about loneliness is that that really comes about when we kind of have these shifts in identity, when we're undergoing life transitions. Yumi By life transitions, we're talking the big stuff, puberty, your 20s and 30s when the career and baby race is on, divorce, my favourite, perimenopause, major illness, empty nesting. Bella And when we think about that, it's that, you know, a woman who's sort of trying to navigate a career path, for example, and also trying to navigate parenthood and perhaps a carer for elderly parents as well. There's a lot of roles in there. And so trying to figure out where there's time and space left for social relationships, that kind of often falls by the wayside. How am I going to progress? What's next for me? So all these questions, I think, can really play into our sense of identity, which can then play into do I belong? Yumi So the overarching idea that I'm getting from this, Dr. Beller, is that it's needing a sense of belonging and the absence of belonging that creates a feeling of loneliness. And when we move from life stage to life stage, it's a bit of a reinvention or a redrawing of ourselves where we're unsure at that point in our lives of where we belong. That's a beautiful nutshell. When we set out to make this episode, we did a call out via my Instagram asking if anyone wanted to share their experiences of loneliness. And God, we appreciate that so many of you are willing to share. One of the voice notes we received really hit hard. Sofie I am a 35-year-old single female. I've just come back from overseas. Most of my girlfriends are married, who have their own children now. And I am childless and not in a relationship. Yumi This is Ladies' Listener, Sophie. Sofie My friends are now in a different spot in their lives. And I feel incredibly lonely. Even when I'm out with them and they don't have their kids with them, I just thought I would share this because, you know, maybe this can be some sort of, I don't know, help me through by talking about it. It's one of the most lonely stuff I've felt in my whole life. Yumi Being at a different stage of life from your mates can be isolating for so many women, especially if your friends are in the marriage and babies era and you're not. And as Dr Bella pointed out, those states of transition are often the loneliest dots on your timeline. After hearing Sophie's voice note, we wanted to meet her in real life. Sandy Hi, Gab. Alright. Yumi Okay. Feel free to take your time. Okay. It's a sensitive thing to talk about. Yeah. And we want to get deep in the feels of it. So can you tell us about a recent time when you've hung out with your friends with the babies? What is it like to be there as the person who doesn't have the baby? Sofie It can be quite isolating and I try not to let it be isolating because I'm one of those people who just makes a joke but I'm actually feeling quite uncomfortable and I'll go up at the end of sentences. So I try not to make it feel awkward but it kind of does. And I find that the awkwardness more comes after the event and then the reality of it comes out which is I don't have that. Yumi A lot of women will be able to relate to your yearning for a baby and a family. Can you describe that feeling of yearning? It Sofie feels pretty shit. It just feels like your heart hurts, your chest hurts and you want that and you don't know what you can do to get that. Yumi That chest hurt feeling, I think that'd be very familiar for a lot of women. Yeah. How often are you feeling that? Is it all day? Is it just sometimes? Sofie No, it's every now and then. Like it just pops up. Like now that we're talking about it I can definitely feel it, you know, simmering. And you know, if you hear another baby announcement or even like so and so is getting married. Yumi Loneliness comes in waves for Sophie. It can be painful in those big, loud announcement type moments but the quiet times can often be even harder. Sofie The loneliness I think can come often at night time, often on the weekend. That's when I feel it the most because during the week I'm like go, go, go, go, go. And then the weekend comes, you reach out to your mates and they're busy with their families. It can be like a Saturday night and you're like, oh, I'm not doing anything. Like it's just me and the dog, who I love, but she doesn't talk to me so, you know. Yumi Staying in at home on a Saturday night inevitably involves an element of FOMO and that sense of a clock ticking for Sophie that a lot of single 30-something women can relate to. Sofie I feel like I'm kind of wasting my time. You know, I should be out there. That's what people are doing and I'm not doing that. And you know, it kind of often ends in a cry. You caught me on a, that was like a Saturday night. Yumi Oh, on a cry night. Yeah, that was cry night. Crying is good. Yeah, I love a good cry. I can tell Sophie that you're funny and you're outgoing and you're quite good company. I mean, in the short time that we've spent together. Do you feel like admitting out loud to people, to humans, that you're lonely kind of is a bit of a vibe kill? Sofie Totally. Yumi Right. Yeah. So you don't want to be that guy? Sofie No, I don't want to be that guy, but you know, jokes aside, which is big for me to say, but jokes aside, I do think it's a really important thing to talk about. Yumi After returning from living overseas at the end of last year, Sophie's got some new roomies. Sofie I'm back at home with my parents. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, Sophie. Yeah. That's a horny place to be living. It's a really great place if you're dating, you know. Oh my God. Like, my parents are great. They're like housemates, but I feel like the closest people in my life at the moment are my parents. Because at this time in my life, that care and love surely should have been passed down to these imaginary children that I thought I was going to have. Yumi Let's talk about being single. Okay. So what do you think that having a partner would bring to your life? Sofie I've thought about this a lot. I don't know what a partner would bring to my life because I don't think my life is horri- like, I don't think it's terrible and I'm quite self-sufficient on my own. Sounds like it. So I don't know what a partner would bring, but I know that it would be nice. I see my parents who have been married for a long time. You know, you kind of long for something that's like that. Yeah. Yumi You know? The yearning for a romantic partner occupies a lot of space in Sophie's mind. Sofie I've been single a long time and I'd like- even though I know it might not be great or they might disappoint the crap out of me, I just want to try it again. You know? I was- now I'm going to get emotional. I was in a relationship when I was in my early 20s and then it ended. And I've not had a connection with someone like that for a long time and I do- I would like that again. You know? Just to- just to- yeah. Yumi What do you miss about it? Sofie Just that someone's in your court, you know? Bella I would argue that loneliness is more about the quality of relationships than the quantity. Yumi This is Dr Bella Ingram again. And by quality, she means getting your needs met. Bella So a varied range of needs. I mean, having shared values, not just hobbies, but actually really being able to connect with someone and go- walk away from that connection and be like, that's my person. Whereas quantity is around, you know, I've got a thousand social media followers. Yumi If you look at people's social media feeds, you could be forgiven for thinking that no one's lonely and everybody's surrounded by really gorgeous friends and doing fun stuff. It's hard not to compare to the shiny, happy versions of life when we see our friends, particularly real people that we know, living that life. Bella I think as women, we're all guilty of this, but we know comparison is the thief of joy. We know social comparisons that are more pronounced now by social media and the accessibility of information can be really difficult when it comes to loneliness because it's exactly what you described. You see something and think, how come I don't have that? What am I doing wrong? Yumi A big part of Bella's research is the connection between women's drinking and loneliness. Bella Women are increasingly one of the highest consumers of alcohol in Australia, particularly middle-aged women. These are also the women that are reporting feeling more and more lonely and women are turning to alcohol to fill a void of some sorts and it becomes a bit of a habit as well. We know that alcohol can be a social facilitator in some instances. It can really help us lighten up, be able to engage in interactions that we might have felt a bit uncomfortable to do otherwise. Yumi But it can be a slippery slope. Bella Where we might find ourselves drinking quite a bit or too much even on one instance and we can actually no longer socially engage very well. We could do things we regret, we could say things we regret, we might wake up feeling a bit embarrassed or we might just find ourselves in this habit of just relying on alcohol to be able to engage socially. Yumi So, okay, we shouldn't rely on alcohol to numb our loneliness but what can we do to protect ourselves from that feeling of loneliness? Bella I think it takes a lot of introspection. I think it's about knowing yourself and so this is going to be difficult for some women and easier for others. But I think if you have a good sense of your values and what's important to you, that's going to be your compass to help navigate you in terms of where you're going to belong. But you're going to know, you're going to trust your gut and you'll know whether they're your people or not at the end of the day. Yumi I like that idea of knowing yourself and having a compass to kind of steer you to the right people. But in essence, isn't making friends hard? Bella Yes, it is so hard and I think again, this is, it takes self-compassion and it takes bravery and courage and I think what it's about is persistence too. What we also know is that navigating knockbacks can be really tricky. That's a really big barrier to being able to connect with other people is that fear of knockbacks. It's shame, it's embarrassment. And it trickles into all this, am I good enough? Yumi Doctor, as somebody who's an expert in this field, who spends a lot of time thinking about loneliness, what are you doing to shore up your own personal future so that you don't become a lonely old woman? Bella My poor husband, I talk to him about this all the time, the poor guy. So I'm giving myself permission to not have to have a big social network that doesn't necessarily fill my cup. I think I'm recognizing that I'm going to have different needs met in different places. So I have some needs met with my work relationships and I love that because I don't get that need met with my husband or some of my friend groups. I'm recognizing that with my husband, I have a lot of needs met, but he's not interested in talking politics with me. That's for friends. And then I walk away from those interactions feeling full, feeling valued, feeling recognized. Sandy We don't acknowledge that there is loneliness in the world and there's loneliness within marriages and that it's okay to feel that way. Yumi It took a lot of courage for Sandy to come on Ladies We Need To Talk and open up about her loneliness, but she wants to shed some light on the issue. Sandy I think it's not acknowledged enough and I wish that women were a bit more honest about it. Yumi What would you say to someone listening right now who is feeling alone in her marriage and her community? Sofie Oh, that's very tricky. Sandy I think that probably what I would say is what someone said to me this morning, is that you're stronger than you think you are and you think you can't do it, but you can. What I would also say to women is you deserve a life, your own life. Yumi As for Sophie, who sent us the voice memo on cry night, she's still struggling with her loneliness, but taking steps in the right direction. Sofie I'm in the bottom of the pit right now. Yumi Well, thank you for reaching out from the bottom of the pit. You're welcome. So what sort of things do you do to try to build connection with others? Sofie I've enrolled in doing a course, not to how to meet people. Yeah, just a course. Just a course of something that I'm interested in, which is a great way to meet people. I exercise, I do boxing classes and I date a lot. Yumi It's not just Sophie who's keen to find a partner. The people around her are invested too. Sofie I hear so and so saying, do you know this guy? Have you met this guy before? Maybe we can set you up. Just because there's two single people doesn't mean we're going to be compatible. Sofie Absolutely not. But they're like, Oh, I know a guy. Sofie Yeah. And you're single and so is he. Sofie He's got an odour. Sofie Yeah, but that's fine. Sofie He hasn't worked in 14 years. I mean, he doesn't have a girlfriend and you don't have a boyfriend. Sofie So maybe you guys would be a match. Yumi Okay, there are six things to take from this. Number one, just because your friend is single doesn't mean she wants you to set them up with some random jobless guy who smells like unwashed butt and corn chips. Be real. The world's man scraps are not your friend's future husbands. Stop that. Number two, cats and dogs are terrible at organising surprise parties and are officially being put on notice that they need to get their shit together or risk being scrap heaped next to the man scraps. Number three, one spouse cannot meet all one's needs. You need to build a social network of awesome people beyond that one person so that you have different people to tap when you have a different need. Four, you can expect transition times to be tough. That includes transitions to new motherhood, menopause, unemployment, divorce. Any situation where you're no longer living the same daily setup that you were. Prepare for this by buying more cats and dogs. Number five, making friends takes intention, work and vulnerability. It may also involve making the first move. My advice is to have a cool thing that you want to do, whether it be going running at dawn or having a sewing group or finding like-minded anti-pollution mining company saboteurs or starting a rock band or acting in amateur theatre or getting into swinging. Have a shared purpose that preferably doesn't involve drugs or alcohol and takes the focus off you and onto the thing that you can do together. Number six and the final on our list, the definition of loneliness is craving connection and not getting it. If you are lonely, we really hope this episode helps and please know that you're not the only one. Yumi This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencoe. It's produced by Elsa Silberstein. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.
ABC News
11-06-2025
- Health
- ABC News
The women of the 'sandwich generation' caring for young and old
I started to notice my 81-year-old mother, Di, struggling just under a year ago, when she texted me late on a Saturday night worrying about some legal paperwork and I could not get her to calm down. After that, she became increasingly anxious and depressed. She no longer took pleasure in the things she loved and began having trouble looking after herself day to day. Realising that mum needed serious professional help, we checked her into a psychiatric hospital for a short stay that turned into six months. Her decline was rapid. She seemed to wither before our eyes. There were falls, a broken arm, delirium, COVID, and, most likely dementia. She couldn't walk from bed to the toilet unaided. Only months prior, mum had lived alone and was independent. She had always been fearsome, a former school principal with a booming laugh and a single mother who made sure I had everything — a picture of self-sacrifice. We love each other to pieces, but also annoy each other like no-one else can. When I realised mum wouldn't be able to live on her own anymore, we planned for her to move into a granny flat at the back of our place when she left the hospital. I suddenly found myself part of what is sometimes called the "sandwich generation": people (mostly women) who have the task of being the primary carer for the generations on either side. My life was hectic even before mum became unwell. I'm an executive producer on the podcast Ladies, We Need to Talk and a parent to my two lovely and spirited neurodivergent kids, who are nine and 11. I knew it was going to be hard work, but nothing prepared me for the difficulty of trying to look after everyone all at once. Every day is spent frantically managing other people's needs, and our time spent together is mostly functional, keeping everyone warm, medicated, fed and showered. As well as helping mum after her release from hospital and getting the kids ready for school, a team of support workers for mum came and went daily, which required a tonne of admin and endless time on the phone. I often feel tired, and like my emotional reserves are used up on everybody else. It could break me on some days. But I'm not alone. There are around 1.5 million Aussies who are in this situation, and the numbers are rising. The 2022 Income and Labour Dynamics in Australia (the "HILDA") Survey, found that women were "considerably more likely" to be carers than men. As Australia's population ages, by 2050 the 85+ age group is expected to triple. We're also having babies later, which means women are often at the peak of their careers when they need to start caring for their kids and their elderly parents too. So, I wanted to find out what the sandwich generation can do to take care not only of the people around them, but of themselves. And for those not at that stage yet, how can we set ourselves up to survive this period? I met with Nasalifya Namwinga, a clinical psychologist and burnout researcher, who often sees how women carry most of the caregiving load, and how heavy this can be for them. "I think there's an expectation that as a woman, you'll provide this care. You're being pulled in three different directions and you are being stretched to meet the needs of these particular roles [as a mother, carer and partner]," she says. Namwinga says it can be helpful to have conversations about expectations of who does the care work early on, "while the parent actually has the capacity to engage or contribute". I've used the word burnout a lot in the past year. But I've often wondered how you know you are experiencing carer burnout as opposed to just being a bit tired and over it? Namwinga says there are three components to burnout: exhaustion, low efficacy and cynicism. I identify with "low efficacy" — stuff like missing kids' appointments, or being late on paying my bills — things that are not the norm for me. Namwinga says cynicism is also one to keep an eye on. "[Cynicism] might play out as anger or intense emotions that don't match how you feel about the thing that you're doing. Those are the feelings that come up that; 'I just wish I didn't have to do any of it.' That's probably a sign you're experiencing carer burnout." I think a lot of mothers and carers struggle with asking for help, because we're used to doing it all, and we are really good at juggling a million things. Namwinga says protecting ourselves from burnout is ultimately about "scaffolding" ourselves with support from others. "So if I start experiencing exhaustion to the point that I'm struggling to get out of bed, who can I call? And asking them for support when you need it. And that means you have to prioritise yourself." Phyllis, who is looking after her mother and children, thinks the term "sandwich generation" needs a rebrand. I spoke to Phyllis because I wanted to hear about women going through similar experiences. She is in the thick of it right now, caring for her 94-year-old mother, Barbara, and two teenage sons, who are 15 and 18, while also working four days a week. She's been her mum's main carer since Barbara's husband died 13 years ago. "He was the filter through which mum saw the world, so when he passed, I had to step into that role," she says. Barbara is in great health for a nonagenarian, but she doesn't drive anymore, and Greek is the language she's most comfortable with. So Phyllis is Barbara's emotional support, her taxi driver, her translator and personal assistant. She tries to see her mum twice a week, and they stay in constant phone contact. But she has set clear expectations with Barbara about how much she can offer as a carer while also trying to parent two teenagers. "My sons come first," she says. "You cannot in this day and age take your hands off the wheel. You can't just say 'hey they're teenagers now, go be free'. It adds a whole other layer of complexity to the parenting equation." As the primary carer, Phyllis can sometimes feel the pressure of non-stop demands from her mum. Coupled with exhaustion, it means Phyllis can sometimes lose her cool with her mum. "The boys have been present when I've argued with my mother and we've gone hammer and tongs and it's been really ugly. But then they also see when we make up," she says. The women staying single by choice in a world of relentless dating pressure The idea of modelling healthy relationships to your kids is something Namwinga leans into in her practice. "When we mess up as parents, it actually provides a beautiful moment for repair with our children, which teaches them something about relationships. It teaches them that you are not perfect," she says. "You can get things wrong. [Saying] 'I was wrong and I'm sorry', is a really powerful experience for a child to learn that if my parent doesn't have to be perfect, then maybe I don't have to be perfect either." Phyllis says there can also be little moments of beauty with her mother. "She can be a really complex, difficult character, but she's very loving and she's very kind and beneath all the bluster, is a very frightened, vulnerable little girl," she says. "And that's what I try and hold onto when times can be tough. "And it makes me emotional because, she's just such a force of nature. She's been through a lot of rejection and pain, and yet she's still who she is unapologetically. She's dealing with her frailties of aging with as much grace as she can muster." I recently spent the day with mum after she had been in respite care for about three weeks. I took her shopping and I could tell she thought she felt good about herself for the first time in a long while. It was so great to see her sparkling a bit. We went out for lunch and she told me about some friends she made in care, and how they get together to complain about the food. Having a chat with me was out of the ordinary for her; normally it's just a list of worries. It made me feel a bit lighter, like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I know there'll be many more bad days ahead, but she's in a good place right now, and we've just signed the paperwork for her to stay in care permanently. But I'm also battling with something more existential as I watch my mum get older — a living grief for the woman she once was. A part of me is also preparing for the end. "It is a complex grief to be watching someone you love slip away from you," Namwinga tells me. "If they experience things like dementia, they're losing memories, they're losing mobility, [and] watching that process can be quite heartbreaking." It is a privilege to be in a position where I can care for my mum and be able to pay her back for a lot of the stuff she did raising me. If I was going to give any advice, it would be that it's going to happen way faster than you think. You think you've got years, but one event can just send everything spiralling out of control and change the whole world for them and for you. So talk to your parents early about their power of attorney, their enduring guardianship, about their will and final wishes. They're hard conversations to have, but it's much easier to have them sooner than later. The host of the Ladies, We Need To Talk, Yumi Stynes, once gave me some words of advice when I was having a bit of a shitty week: "Don't be heroic." So I've taken those words on board and it's now my current Sandwich Gen motto.
ABC News
09-06-2025
- Entertainment
- ABC News
Jessie Tu, on miscarriage and doing motherhood her way
Yumi Hey ladies, before we start, I want to ask you a favour. We're looking for feedback. I'd love to know what you think about Ladies We Need To Talk and the sorts of things you want to hear about more on our show. What do you love? What topics are close to your heart? What things have we missed? And what would you love to hear less of? We've posted a survey on the Ladies, We Need To Talk website and in the show notes of the episode that you're listening to right now. If you could fill it out, it will help us to understand you more and help us to fashion the best possible episodes in future. Please take five minutes out of your day to fill out the survey. You'll be helping our show to be more your show. It's completely anonymous, so you can be brutally honest. Just don't say you love me because it'll make me cry. And thank you. Jessie It's the most weird and mind boggling thing to fall pregnant and to have this thing that is the most ecstatic, joyful thing in the world happen. Yumi Author Jessie Tu was pregnant with a baby she had longed for. But seven weeks into the pregnancy, the dream evaporated. Jessie And then for that to go away, it's just I don't think we have the language for it. I think that people are uncomfortable and don't know how to sit with grief, like the specific grief that is miscarrying. Yumi On a regular Sunday morning last year, Jessie, aged 37 at the time, was in her pyjamas in the courtyard of her house when she got a phone call telling her that the baby she thought was growing in her belly was no longer viable. Jessie She said the results have come back and they're not what we want. Yumi The doctor didn't use the word miscarriage in the call, but Jessie would become very acquainted with that word as she waded through her loss. Jessie It's a distressing, inexplicable kind of harrowing grief that you go through. Yumi I'm Yumi Steins. Ladies, we need to talk about writing your own motherhood script with Jessie Tu. Jessie Tu is a high achiever. She was a violinist before becoming an author and turned her classical musician past into inspiration for her first novel, A Lonely Girl is a Dangerous Thing, which made her one of Australia's most dazzling young authors. She's also the classic Asian diasporic kid, believing that a relentless work ethic and nonstop grind gets results. But that was something she had to unlearn in the unpredictable lottery of pregnancy. Even trying to conceive, she realised she couldn't be the model minority perfect A-grade student to get what she wanted. Jessie You spend your whole life as a woman being told, don't fall pregnant. This is how to not fall pregnant. And the moment you want to fall pregnant and it doesn't happen immediately, it is so discombobulating and it's such a shock to the system. Also because we as women are so resourceful. And what I mean is that if we want something, we know how to get it. Yeah. And there's one thing, there's one thing that we're told is so natural and common and ordinary. The fact that it wasn't happening month to month, like for me, it was, it drove me quite insane. Like I had to get a lot of, I talked to a lot of friends about it. I sought therapy about it. But yeah, I just felt like such a failure. Yumi And did it make the process of having sex with your partner weird or a bit more joyless? Jessie I know a lot of people said that. Yeah. It becomes like a chore. For me personally, I found it fine. I guess maybe because we'd been trying for less than a year. Yeah. So maybe it would have been different. But for me personally, no, it was still a lot of fun. Yumi Jessie didn't always want to be a mum. She grew up in a Taiwanese family and through her young eyes, their adherence to traditional gender roles was repellent. Jessie I think a lot of it just looked kind of oppressive. I saw the way my mother was asked, as most women of her generation were during that time, to give up her career aspirations, any kind of identity outside of motherhood and wifedom, when she got married at 24 and had four children within six years. And then all I saw of her the moment we migrated to Australia when I was four, five, was complete sacrifice, self-sacrifice. She had no identity outside the home. She was a chauffeur. She was the cook. She was a nanny. She was a caregiver. I just thought, I don't want to be like that. It just seems like so hard. And I never wanted to be invisible. And to see my mother have all her labour unacknowledged, it just made me angry. Yumi It made me so angry. So funny. I'm the youngest of four as well. And I remember thinking the exact same thing about my mum. It's like, why does she have to work so hard? So being a mother to you was being somebody who just gave and sacrificed herself. Jessie And was unrecognised. That I think was the most bruising to my ego. Yeah, right. Yumi No acknowledgement, no thank you, no gratitude. Jessie I think I've always saw marriage as a straight jacket for women. The men go out, do their thing. They could come home and still get praised at the workplace for just being a father, just for bringing in the dough. And the women were invisible back home. I just thought that wasn't the model of happiness that I wanted to pursue. Yumi It is a modern feminist conundrum. What to do when your attraction to men seems to put you in harm's way. Jessie Maybe because it feels a little bit like I'm giving in to male power. In the last few years, I've consistently and very actively and stridently questioned my heterosexuality because there are moments in my adult life where I thought it's a joke that I've been fooled into thinking that getting a man to validate and love me is just all a game. Yumi But look, she was straight. How annoying. And as Jessie came into adulthood, the men she was meeting were not making great ambassadors for dating or heterosexuality. Jessie I had, I want to say the word horrifying, but just like a series of very unpleasant dating experiences all through my twenties. And I realised upon reflection that it's because I was chasing a feeling. And the feeling is Hollywood generated. It's the feeling of being swept up, you know, butterflies in your stomach, all of those things that we are told by Hollywood and books to feel, to know that this is love, capital L. Yumi And then in 2020, Jessie was 33 when she found a connection. There was less capital L love at first sight and more capital R for real. Jessie It really came through weeks and weeks of just hanging out with him and being friends first and realising that I felt completely myself and comfortable. And I know this is cheesy, but he just felt like home as in like, he just felt like someone I had known for a long time and who I didn't need to put a mask on when I was around him. That was quite revelatory. Wow. It's that's so beautiful. And really the decision to become a parent was meeting my partner and realising that I can actually have a life where I parent a child and for my identity to not be totally annihilated. I think that was quite liberating. Yumi After dating for about a year, Jessie and her partner, Andrew, were on a weekend away in a little seaside town in New South Wales. Jessie He and I were sitting on an embankment, like just looking out onto the sunset, and I was just overcome by sheer beauty, like looking at the sunset, just sitting with him sitting next to me. And I just thought, I think it would be an incredible thing to bring someone who doesn't currently exist into the world because the world is and can be a beautiful place. I think for me, I'm very beauty driven, beauty in the sense that natural beauty, good things in the world. Like there was a change in my belief system that I was no longer as cynical as I was before, thinking this world is so messed up. It wasn't worthy of bringing a child into. But then seeing that sunset, just something changed in me. Yumi Your molecules got rearranged. I think so. Nothing like true love and a sunset to get those ovaries pulsating. So Jessie and Andrew got to it, having plenty of unprotected sex and dreaming about vast oceans and sun setting skies. And of course, we little tiny cute babies. But it wasn't happening for them. And each month that Jessie didn't fall pregnant was another crushing disappointment. Jessie My therapist said that every time you see blood in your underwear, it's a little bit of grieving because it's something that you hoped that would happen and it didn't happen. Yumi Eleven months into trying for a baby, Jessie was at the doctors getting an iron infusion and she had what she thought were cramps indicating an oncoming period. Jessie And my doctor, I sat down, was ready to inject the iron. She said, are you pregnant? And I said, no, I'm pretty sure I'm not. And she got me to do a test and then she sat down next to me and I could sense something was happening because she was chatting to the nurses secretively. And then she turned to me and said, you're pregnant. Yeah. And I was just really in shock. Like, I didn't believe her. Yumi Usually, those cramps meant that her period was on its way, but not this time. Jessie got in the car and drove home to tell her partner. Jessie He was elated. But I always foresaw the moment of knowing that I was pregnant. I remember thinking for the whole 11 months, I would literally put on a pair of joggers and run out on the streets and wave my arms around and scream with joy. You know, all I wanted was to be pregnant. Yumi But when the moment finally came, instead of running around screaming with happiness, Jessie was hushed by how utterly powerless she felt in this pregnancy. Jessie I was just wracked with anxiety from that moment on. Oh no. Because I was like, is this going to continue? The whole experience of falling pregnant, getting pregnant, having children is so fraught because you never know when anything could happen. Yeah. There is no moment of certainty. And then I hear my parents say, even when you do have a child and they come out healthy, you never stop worrying. Yumi So how much future imagining did you do in the first weeks of that pregnancy where you're kind of projecting forward? Not much, to be honest. Did you imagine what sort of mother you would be? Jessie An angry one. Yumi Oh, great. Why is that? Because of your mum? Jessie Because I'm just a very angry person. I'm quite impatient. Like if someone doesn't. Yumi You're describing me. Everything you say, I'm like, oh my God, this bitch thinks me. Jessie Yeah. Like if someone doesn't do something the way I want it in the time frame I want it, I'm like, just like, I get fucking angry. Yumi What about your child, your future child? Could you picture them? Jessie I tried not to, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. I know I had friends who, when they were pregnant, they would send me, you know, the tracking apps that would tell you how big. I could not do that. Because if I did mess carry, I didn't want to imagine this as a potential human being because I didn't want to jinx myself. Yumi Like most intelligent, reasonable women with over-achieving anxiety and a human growing inside their body, Jessie was obsessively Googling. Jessie I read on some website that said the most dangerous, like quote unquote dangerous time for a pregnancy was week seven to eight. Oh, well, that's doom and gloom. Yeah. Yeah. And then so when I hit around six, seven weeks, I started worrying a lot because I was like, every day I was like, is it going to be today? Is it going to be today? Yumi Jessie was seven weeks pregnant when she noticed there was light bleeding. But physically, she was feeling fine. Jessie I had a friend who said it's normal. Some women spot during pregnancy. It doesn't actually could mean anything. Just go for a blood test. And then I think one or two days later, my doctor called me and she said, are you sitting down? And I guess that's never a good opener. Yumi She wasn't sitting down, actually. She was standing in her courtyard on a very bright, sunny Sunday in April. And she stayed standing as she got the news. Jessie And she said, the results have come back and they're not what we want. She just kept saying they're not what we want. And I was like, what do you mean? Can you just tell me if this if I've miscarried? And she said, I don't think this will be a viable pregnancy. She kept using that kind of technical, medical language that I just frustrated me. It made the whole experience even more alienating and lonely that she just she couldn't just say the words. Yes, you've miscarried. She conveyed to me that my HCG levels had gone down. And then I consulted Google later and it said when HCG levels go down during a pregnancy, it means the pregnancy is no longer going to continue. I hopped on the phone with a friend who's a GP, discussed it. But they were also trying to just evade the whole yes, you've miscarried. Like they just didn't want to say that to my face. Yumi After Jessie took that phone call in the morning, she went to a family lunch for her mum's birthday. Jessie So my family, as traditional as that is, we're very, very transparent with each other. I'm very open with my parents and my siblings. They knew the journey I had been on to try and conceive. But because I was so anxious about the pregnancy, I didn't tell anyone. It was just my partner and I. Because there's this ridiculous rule that you're supposed to wait till 12 weeks. I'm saying it's ridiculous because I just hate any kind of sort of assumed law about things like that, like when to tell people. And so we didn't tell them. And so I rocked up to this gathering and I knew I couldn't hide it. I couldn't just sit there and pretend. And so I sat down and my parents and I, we speak in Mandarin together. And I said to them, my Mandarin is the equivalent of like a nine or ten year old. So my vocabulary is not very good. So I didn't know the word for miscarriage. So I basically sat down and said, Mum, I have something to tell you. I was pregnant and now I'm not. I found out this morning, the doctor told me. And yeah, it was, I mean, I like rumbled into a ball of mess. Yumi Jessie's relationship with the Mandarin language is complicated. Like a lot of children of migrants, she spent her younger years absolutely determined to be an excellent English speaker and consciously narrowing the use of her parents' native tongue. The day of that family lunch, Jessie didn't have the words in Mandarin to tell her mum what was happening in her body. It was only much later that she could face looking it up. Jessie I had to Google what the word miscarriage was, and it's liu hai. And liu hai is two words, which mean like flow and asset. Flow as in like kind of flow out. And then an asset, like a property. Liu hai. Yeah. It was, to me, it felt a bit comforting because I guess at that point, I wanted to feel like what had happened to me was not the loss of a human life, even though it was, but like just something that was not meant to become a human being. Like I found comfort in the language, the sort of clinical separation of like the flowing of asset, the sort of letting like something out of your control, basically. Yeah. Like the way the river flows, the water flows down a river. The following day we went to the early pregnancy clinic and did an ultrasound. And that's when they said, yes, it's confirmed. There's no heartbeat. Yumi And that ultrasound, was that the one where they put it on your belly? Yes. Yeah. So you're looking at the screen looking for a fetus. Jessie Well, I think I was a bit too upset at that point. I didn't look at the screen. Yumi So you told your family, did you talk to other people in your life about having a miscarriage? I Jessie did. I was quite, I'm an overshare. Yeah. I like it was telling like, well, I wouldn't say strangers, but just people I met. I remember a few days after it happened, I hadn't seen a very sort of distant acquaintance at this book event. And I just told her immediately, I just miscarried. And it was so like, for me, it was cathartic because I wanted people to know what I'd gone through. And then often what would end up happening is that once I revealed my miscarriage, honestly, half the time, the women I spoke to, they would say, I also. Have experienced miscarriage. And that's my way of connecting and connecting through grief. You know, I really needed to do that just to center myself and my story. And also hear from these women who nine times out of 10 went on to become mothers that I could become a mother one day, even though this has happened. Interesting. So Yumi it's part of the process. I think so. Yeah. That's a really beautiful way to look at it. Why do you think there's still a taboo around talking about miscarriage? Jessie I think that people are uncomfortable and don't know how to sit with grief, like the kind of specific grief that is miscarrying. It's the most weird and mind boggling thing to fall pregnant and to have this thing that is the most ecstatic, joyful thing in the world happen. And then for that to go away, it's just, I don't think we have the language for it. And I think that people don't know how to react when someone says, I've miscarried. I think a lot of people are just uncomfortable or embarrassed or just would rather not go there. We turn away from things that are ugly or messy or inexplicable. People want to comfort you, but I guess a lot of people just don't know how to, Yumi especially men. Oh, really? They were the most speechless? Jessie I think men are still not rewarded for being emotionally intelligent. And so I know that part of the reason I was so vocal about my own miscarriage was that I had a male acquaintance friend who didn't want his, like his partner had miscarried and he didn't want it to come out. I just think any kind of blanketing of things that happen in our life is unhealthy. Like maybe there's someone who's listening right now who can think of something that, you know, is private things in our lives that should remain private. Poo. Yumi Talking about poo at dinner table. Yes. Okay. Yes, that's true. I think talk about poo with people that love to talk to you about poo, but not at dinner. Jessie Yeah, just not at dinner. Not at dinner. Yeah, yeah. But on the whole, like everything about life, especially the most private things should be aired out. Yumi After the miscarriage, Jessie started trying for a baby again, pretty much straight away. Because Jessie I'm an insecure high achiever. Yumi You're such an Asian. So is that the only reason why? Was the clock ticking as well? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Jessie I was like almost approaching 37, I guess. And with each month, I was just thinking, my chances, biologically speaking, are getting Yumi lower and lower. How did it feel to want this thing so desperately, but not be able to control the outcome? Jessie It can drive you mad. And I think it drove me mad. Yeah. It was one of the most challenging things I had to negotiate psychically, just to come to terms with, this may not actually happen for me ever. Wow. To try and accept that, I think was a giant leap for me. And I really pursued that line of thought every day. Because in my 20s, when I was really struggling to find a male partner who I could see being with, and who respected me as an equal, like I struggled real hard to be in a healthy relationship. And I remember during that time struggling in dating, just thinking, this might not actually happen. Yeah. Like I might just be alone for the rest of my life. And to try and just think, that is okay. It's a huge psychological, emotional endeavour, I guess. With this whole baby making process. This is completely out of my control. You have some news. I'm currently pregnant. Yes. Yumi Congratulations. Jessie Thank you. How are you feeling about it? I'm in my second trimester now. Okay. But the first trimester was harrowing and unpleasant. A lot of crying for absolutely no reason. A lot of inexplicable emotions, highs and lows. The crying would come in the oddest moments. And I couldn't explain it. And I think I was maybe grieving the life that I was going to now no longer have because of this impending baby about to come out into the world. Yeah. And I felt so bad because I know how much I wanted this baby. Like, I just kept thinking I should be elated and that's it. I should only have this one side of emotion. Yeah. Because I had been on the other side of not being pregnant and known and being so jealous of women who were pregnant. And then for me to be pregnant and then not being grateful for it, I felt I was somehow morally corrupt or I wasn't being fair to God. Like, I'm not a believer, but I was like, why am I not grateful? Yumi Jessie spoke to a midwife about that guilt and was told that it is really common to feel guilty and something that a lot of pregnant people go through. It's like, fuck, I wanted this for so long, but I'm also feeling terrible all the time. And it sucks. Jessie We're meant to be just grateful. We're just meant to be ecstatic and excited. I think the excitement is coming now only because the nausea has faded a bit. But when you're nauseous, like you can't think of anything else. Yeah. It's horrible. Yumi Yeah. Tell me about telling your parents that you were pregnant. Jessie I just said to them very casually one day, oh, my period hasn't come in a week. That's all I said to my parents. And then the next time, because we hang out quite regularly, and the next time I saw them maybe two weeks later, I was like, yeah, it still hasn't come. So I think the implication... Oh, my Yumi God. Are you serious, Jessie? Jessie So I just said, and then by I guess by fourth or fifth week, I was like, I think I'm pregnant. Yumi And how were they reacting? Were they just giving you side eye? Like, OK. Yeah. Yeah. They're very, very understated people. Yeah. They were Jessie just like, OK, cool. It was just like a day by day thing because they knew what had happened in the past to me. So they were like, OK, well, just take care of yourself. Like, I've seen a new side to my dad I've never seen before. He's been so caring. I don't know. He's a man of that generation. And suddenly his youngest daughter is pregnant. And he's like, every time he sees me now, he's like, how's the how are you? How's the baby? How are you? Like, he asks me questions. Whereas like my whole adult life, when I see my dad, like he doesn't ask me questions. Yumi Very undemonstrative people, your parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you allowed yourself to start making plans for this unborn baby? Jessie The only thing we've done is have casual conversations about names. OK, that's all. Yumi When Jessie was young, she saw her mother's motherhood and marriage as painful and endless servitude. But as she steps into being a mum herself, she sees a future where she gets to keep a hold of who she is. Jessie I'm being a mother in 2025, as opposed to in the 80s. And I won't be a mother of four. I have more resources. I live in a country that has so many wonderful resources for women going through pregnancy and going through a lot of mental health changes in the early years of motherhood. And in a society that is more open about encouraging women to talk about the practice, the state of being a mother. I'm very grateful for all of that. And I am in a relationship where my male partner doesn't believe in gendered roles. So I think it will be different. I hope it will. I hope it will be different. Yumi There is so much in our lives that we want to control but can't. We can't control finding the right person to fall in love with. Although, by God, we can try. We can't control the mysterious moment when a single sperm cell swims up to an egg and in that precise second dives in. Although, we can and do try to control that too. And we certainly can't control the random moment when the heartbeat of a fetus just stops. Jessie too formed a tough shell and a ferocity to cope with the world she grew up in and that served her. But she's learning to surrender control to the unpredictability of this messy life. She's softened into loving a good man. She's softened into letting her parents comfort her. And guess what? The truly awful parts? They were made way more bearable by sharing her pain with other women. So yet again, at the end of another Ladies We Need To Talk episode, I'm thinking about holding my ladies real close. And also staying away from sunsets. I have too many kids for that. You said that you like fighting adversity together with friends. The thing that I want to recommend is extreme bushwalking. What makes it extreme? Well, it's got to be hard. OK. And you need to carry all your shit on your back. Oh, OK. And then you need to camp overnight. And invariably, someone will hurt themselves or fall over or shit their pants. So we're talking about poo now. And then you overcome it together. And then you experience nature and sunsets and like food when you're so hungry. And it's incredible. Do you think that could ever be in your future? I'm not a fan of camping. Yeah, I can see it in your face. As soon as I see it, I was like, oh, she's out. I've Jessie lost it. I've lost Jessie. But everything outside of sleeping on a sleeping bag. Yes. Yumi I'll get I'll convert you. I'll drag you into my car. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies, We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor. This episode was produced by Elsa Silberstein and Katie O'Neill. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.
