Latest news with #Yumi
ABC News
14-07-2025
- Entertainment
- ABC News
How to love your body after babies
ABC Listen: podcasts, radio, news, music and more. Yumi Hey ladies, I want to let you know about a podcast I think you'll really like. It's called Australian Birth Stories and it's full of really amazing stories of pregnancy, birth, conception, IVF and life postpartum. If ever there was a podcast, aside from this one of course, that leaves you thinking, holy hell, women are incredible, then Australian Birth Stories is it. Look for it wherever you get your podcasts. And we are going to meet the host of Birth Stories later in this episode. Zali The whole idea that our body should go back to what it was before going through that enormous process is ludicrous. Turia I was in awe of what my body was capable of doing. Tegan My relationship with my body has gone from seeing it as an ornament to seeing it as an instrument. Sophie We need to just kind of get out of that shift, I think, of comparing ourselves to the kind of Instagrammable mums that bounce back. Turia I really try and focus in on all of those things that my body does as opposed to what it looks like. And I think being a mum or giving birth has really helped me to do that. Yumi If you're a woman and even semi-conscious, then you know there is a hell of a lot of scrutiny of your body. We're expected to fight gravity and the passing of time to conform to a beauty ideal that's always out of reach. No matter what kind of body you have, you've probably tried to make it smaller, perkier, and more socially acceptable. These unrelenting body standards cling to us like a Kim Kardashian skim dress no matter what stage of life we're at, even in and after pregnancy. Even when we've been the incubator of new life for nine months and had our organs pushed to the side and our skin stretched to make way for the new human. Even if we've been torn asunder getting the baby out. Even if our boobs have been the breakfast, lunch, and dinner yum cha cart for our babies, there's still a pressure to shrink back down to our pre-baby selves. But what if we said hell no, hell no to the idea that we should bounce back? What if growing a baby and giving birth was actually an opportunity to change your relationship with your body? I'm Yumi Stynes, ladies, we need to talk about loving our bodies after birth. This episode is about women finding a newfound respect for their bodies after birth. And that can't be understood without finding out how they felt about their bodies pre-babies. Turia I'm not trying to say this to be cocky, Yumi. I was conventionally like a young, athletic, pretty woman. Yumi Tariya Pitt can look back with kindness at her teenage self, but at the time, she saw her body as not being good enough. Turia In the 90s, there was just one type of body and it was white and it was thin. I'm Polynesian, so I wasn't white, but at least I was thin. Yumi Even though she was always athletic and slim, Turia was still aware of the impossible body standard that lay always out of reach. Turia I still probably was a bit, not a bit, probably quite caught up in how I looked. Yumi Yeah, and the constant search for flaws and things that you could fix, improve or criticise about yourself. Turia Yeah, yeah, which is like not something that I came up with. It's just what you saw when you watch telly. It's inescapable, right? It's in the media, it's in the news, it's in the magazines. Yumi In 2011, Turia was caught in a grass fire while running an ultramarathon. She almost died and ended up with burns to 65% of her body. She lost seven fingers and had two years in hospital, having multiple surgical procedures and recovering. Turia I didn't like looking in the mirror. I didn't like when I saw my arms, I saw my legs, because it was so different to what they used to look like. So even when I would get changed, I would shut my eyes so I wouldn't have to see myself. I had a really good psychologist in those early stages and I told her I was doing that and she said, every time you shut your eyes, when you get changed, you're going to see a change that's sending yourself a signal that you don't like what you see. Yumi What were some of the things, the tiny things that were frustrating about the day to day of being in this new body after the accident? Turia You just want one thing, you hear me? Because there's a whole fucking list. There's a whole list of things that I find frustrating about this body that I have now. Like not having all my fingers, finding it hard to open a jar, finding it hard to open a door, finding it hard to get in and out of my wetsuit. The fact that I get really, really hot or I get really, really cold, how dry my skin can feel sometimes. Yumi The extent of Turia's injuries meant her doctors were worried about her having children. But Turia's always been strong-willed and babies were the plan for she and her partner Michael. So they got pregnant, then told her doctors. Turia Because I think we have this idea as well that when someone has a disability, you know, maybe motherhood's not for them. And I think that's really unfair. I think everyone has the right to be a mother, irrespective of whether they have a disability or not. Yumi Your medical team had a lot of concerns. Do you know what they were about? Turia No, and I've never asked because I don't really give a fuck. Yumi Even though she didn't particularly care what doctors thought about her getting pregnant, it turned out Terea was affected by what people said once she fell pregnant. Turia And like my body post-burns has done some pretty cool shit. Like I've done Ironman World Championships. I've done all sorts of cool adventure races. I've done those things after being burnt. But I think maybe just the comments that people made to me while I was pregnant about, you know, how do you think your body will handle it? Or were you booking for a cesarean? Maybe those kinds of comments made me question whether or not my body was up to the challenge. Yumi Turia had a pretty textbook pregnancy and birth with her first child, and with the recommendation of her obstetrician, opted for an epidural. Turia For my second child, I thought I want to just try and see what labour pains are like. So then either tests came in to give me an epidural and I was like, no, thanks, mate. I'll give you a call in a little bit. You know, when I start, you know, I just want to feel what this feels like. Fast forward 20 minutes, I'm screaming in pain. I'm saying, get me my fucking epidural right now. And they're all saying, no, it's too late, Turia. You've got to start pushing. Turia So I had Rahiti. It was a really quick labour, but it was also a very empowering experience. I felt like it was transcendent that I'd accessed all of these generations of ancestors that I have in me, that I, you know, that I was a strong woman, that I was a capable woman, that I could do hard things. I was in awe of what my body was capable of doing. What was breastfeeding like? I got really self-conscious with that, with people looking, not because I was ashamed at breastfeeding, but because maybe I felt they were judging. Yumi Judging you, judging your body or judging the way the child was attaching? Turia Maybe all of those things. Like I suppose I'm very conscious of how I parent because I don't want people to think, oh, Turia's not doing a good enough job at being a mum. And so I was always really conscious of that. Like if my son didn't latch on straight away or if he's crying, then everyone's going to think I'm a bad mum. Oh, that's really hard. Yeah. And I think just with the added layer of my burns and my disability, I was probably more aware of that. So breastfeeding in public, you know, being a bit clumsy with popping my tit out and stuff like that. You know, less so with my second child, but definitely with my first one. Yumi Since her accident, Terea has had to learn to adjust to the things that her body can't do. But having a baby has given her a renewed appreciation for what it can. Turia I think these days that I'm not always great at it, but I really genuinely try and focus on what my body can do, right? Because we can all think of a million different things that our body is shit at or that we don't love about our body. But I remind myself, like your body has given birth to two sons. You know, you've been pregnant with them and you've breastfed both of them. Your arms carry them, your legs walk them to school. You can hold their little hands, you can brush their hair, you can read them a book, you can make them dinner. So I really try and focus in on all of those things that my body does as opposed to what it looks like. And I think being a mum or giving birth has really helped me to do that. Zali We thought that women who had just gone through the process of growing a belly, giving birth, breastfeeding, the whole thing, we thought that they would be the most dissatisfied with their bodies. But actually, they were much more likely to be appreciative of their bodies. Yumi This is Zali Yager. She's the executive director of the Embrace Collective, which is a charity focused on building better body image. In her former life as an academic, Zali was part of a research team at Victoria University, looking into how women felt about their bodies after giving birth. They looked at three different categories, women with kids zero to five years old, then six to 10 years old, and finally no children at all. And what they found was that those with the youngest kids felt the best about their bodies. Zali They had less body shame, less self-objectification. And so that's kind of, you know, thinking of your body as an object that's there to be looked at instead of a thing that does stuff for us. And when we compared the women of even children six to 10, so it's like the effect kind of wears off as your kids get older. And then also compared to women who had never had children, it just seemed to be this protective effect of like, oh my gosh, my body has actually done something. You know, it's useful and it's done something that's really meaningful. Yumi Why does that feeling wane or taper down as the children get older? Zali I think the main reason is that, you know, when we've got that tiny baby with us, they're kind of attached to us most of the time. And everyone can see that that might be the reason why your body might be different. Yumi A different study from the University of Minnesota, which looked at women in the first year postpartum, found that women started getting more dissatisfied with their bodies six to nine months after giving birth. Zali There was just that kind of expectation coming back of, you know, needing to, I want to put it, bounce back in inverted commas always, because it's just not a thing. You know, needing to go back to a body that might conform to societal standards instead of being something that's, you know, feeding, nourishing, growing babies. Yumi When you say bounce back, inverted commas, is not a thing, what do you mean? Zali I just think that the whole idea that our body should go back to what it was before going through that enormous process is ludicrous. Now it seems so obvious to me that it shouldn't be a thing, but prior to having children, no one told you anything else other than that your belly would grow and then it would go back down again. I just think we need to talk more about the fact that bodies definitely need to change over time. Sure. It's the whole idea. But certainly, you know, all of the influences on how we feel about the way we look do come from our family, our peers, and the media that we engage with throughout women's lives. And bodies do not change over time in terms of in the movies and in the media that we see with women kind of staying relatively the same size and shape over time. Yumi Yeah, yeah. Do you remember when Posh Bex had her babies and it was always so much scrutiny on how she would bounce back and how thin she would kind of come out looking as really snatched, you know, weeks after she'd had a baby? Do you think that sort of intel is really damaging for women? Zali Yeah. And then because we see that everywhere in the media, we kind of think that's normal. And I kind of think that's one of the things social media has given us is a little bit of an insight, perhaps into like a wider range of stories of what might happen during that time and how bodies might be different for quite a long time afterwards. And so I'm really loving the fact that we do get exposure to just those bellies that still look like they have a baby in them, even though they've given birth. And the women sharing that, I think that's really helpful for people who are in that time. Yumi Yeah, that totally happened to me where I'd given birth and then someone said, when's the baby due? And I was like, Jesus Christ. Here it is. While there are realistic postpartum images of women on social media, there's still a ball tearing amount of snatched back pre-baby body nonsense as well. So it's important for women to act as role models. Zali You would know this. When you try to sit down and like get out the whiteboard and teach your kids stuff and tell them like intentional messages, they don't want to hear it. But when you swear accidentally or something, they will soak that up. And so it's, you know, it's kind of the same thing in that they're picking up messages all the time around, you know, how we look at ourselves in the mirror and then the little things that we might say and how we might respond to things. But when we can role model just little things, whenever we can remember to, when we can role model like, oh, I love that my arms can cuddle you. Just those tiny little moments of just recognizing what our body does for us instead of what it looks like. Yeah. When we can role model little pieces of that. Yumi I used to tell my daughters that your body's like a car. You have to drive it till you die. Like you don't get to trade it in. And I think like a lot of people think, I hate my car. I can hate it, but you still got to drive it till you die. Like just you may as well love it, treat it good and like upkeep it well, you know. I think they quite like that analogy. Yeah. Yeah. Zali But also like the more you like your car or the more you think your car is like special and amazing, you might put like, you might spend that two cents extra on the premium fuel. Sophie Some women look like they haven't had a baby five days post, but the 95% of the rest of society don't. So we have these unrealistic expectations of how our body will be. Yumi This is Sophie Walker. As well as being the creator and host of the Australian Birth Stories podcast, Sophie's also a mum. Sophie So I've got three beautiful rambunctious boys that are six, nine and 11. And my first baby boy was 4.4 kilos. So I was really big in that pregnancy. And for a bit of context, my husband's Fijian. So he's built a bit more solidly. And I think I really enjoyed pregnancy. I'd always wanted to be pregnant and have kids. And I just loved having a big belly and being able to wear clothes that kind of clung to my belly and you could just let it all hang out. I think I'd spent so many years holding my stomach in and trying to squeeze myself into sort of spanks and things. I loved that time of just being like, oh, everybody loves you being big. Yumi What's your relationship with your body been like throughout your life before kids? Sophie Yeah, prior to having kids, I think I had a really tumultuous relationship with my body. I got bullied in sort of grade six for being overweight. You know when you finish grade six and everybody signs your T-shirt and people wrote nasty things on the back of my T-shirt that you didn't see till you got home. And I think on reflection, sort of pre-menstruating, I think my hormones went wild and I put on a lot of weight suddenly. And to the point where my mum's a psychologist and she was trying to do all the things and protect my mental health, but also helped me try and reduce some of that weight to the point where we ended up going to Weight Watchers together. Yeah, which seems wild now. And I have such a great relationship with my mum that I feel like some people will be like, what? What was she doing? And I think that she was really trying to help me. But it was really difficult and I felt kind of body shamed from a young age. So I kind of hated my body and saw exercise and things as like a way of getting weight off and a negative. Yumi Just talking about not loving your body for many years, did that change after birth? Sophie Yeah, I think my road into kind of conceiving was very straightforward. So I kind of had a trust in my body there. I think it wavered when my first birth didn't go to plan. So I was like, oh, a lot of work on like, did I do something wrong? Was I not birthing well? I think having the next two births go smoothly and being able to implement a lot of things that I learnt then there was a kind of a greater sense of trust and kind of knowing in my body's strength. Yumi The new body that Sophie's learnt to love looks quite different from her pre-pregnancy one. Sophie My stretch marks almost go up to my boobs. And it's interesting now because we're a bit of a nudist household. So the boys are always like, what are those lines? What's that about? And I'm like, that's you, you stretch that out. So yeah, we try and use, I try to be as positive as I can with the boys about all sorts of things. Yumi Sophie is modelling the kindness to her body that Zali Yager says is so important. Sophie Trying to get them to kind of love their own bodies by showing that I love mine, which I do now, but I didn't for many, many years. Yumi So when you look in the mirror and you see the tummy pouch where the babies used to live, what's your internal dialogue saying about that? Sophie Yeah, it's definitely done a full shift there. I just look at it, it's housed these three wild boys, which is crazy when I look at them and how much they're changing day to day. And I think, yeah, I don't care about the kind of stretch marks and I don't care that I've got like a pouch there now because I'm able to do all the things that I want to do. I'm, you know, I've got, I'm very healthy, I'm able to exercise freely and I don't, I kind of look at all the other illness and things in society and I'm much more able to reflect and feel grateful rather than kind of hating the odd kind of different bits and pieces. Yumi You're the founder of the Australian Birth Stories Podcast. Listening to so many stories, do you get a sense of how women feel about their bodies after this just life-changing experience of birth? Sophie I think they find it very difficult in that first 12 months particularly because you're sleep deprived, you're fluctuating, trying to learn how to feed or navigate kind of, yeah, all that sleeplessness. I think people, it's very, very natural to kind of not love your body straight away and it does take a bit of time and it does take, I mean, so much of motherhood and birth is surrendering and you almost have to surrender to that at least that first year. But I mean, people argue whether postpartum's forever, but I think that that first year is really pivotal in kind of finding your feet and kind of finding a new identity and part of that is coming to accept a different body. And I think you're not the same person emotionally and physically, so it would be unrealistic for your body to look the same. Yumi You were talking about how you loved your pregnant body and you'd go out in tight fitting clothes and wear the jumpsuits and whatnot and people were kind of loving you and you were loving on yourself. Should we be celebrating a post birth body or a post pregnant body in the same way? Sophie Yeah, definitely, if not more, but I think it's hard to project that too because I think when women see other women out at cafes with newborns and things, they've probably spent quite a few hours preparing themselves and they've tried to go out the door and they've had to do a full outfit change of both the baby and the mother and things like that. But I think we don't see the kind of disheveled mother navigating all those things that are leaking and things. And I mean, I don't know, I don't feel like we should all go out with our hair dripping with sweat and milk all over us, but we need to make people aware that behind closed doors, particularly in those first six weeks, it's messy and don't kind of try and fit into a certain look. Just allow yourself that time and space to get to know your baby and to get to know yourself and your body again. Yumi So, Sophie, do you have any helpful ways of reframing the ideas around when you're having a wobbly time with your body? Sophie I just think there's so many women that would love to be in your shoes. We've just interviewed so many women that have just strived to become mothers and they would be so envious to have a deflated belly and saggy boobs right now and a baby that's kept them up all night. So, I think just trying to practice kind of self-compassion and kindness and gratitude towards the fact that you have been able to reach this point in your life because there'd be a million people wanting to trade places with you. Tegan I might look at myself in the mirror and have a thought about myself I'd rather not have. Yumi This is Tegan. She's a mum to a four-year-old girl and a freshly cooked four-month-old baby boy. Like the other mums we've spoken to, giving birth has changed how Tegan feels about her body. Tegan Oh, that belly might look a little bit bigger than I'd like, but it was your baby's house, you know, and would I take that back? Never in a million years. Yumi While she came into the studio for a chat, Tegan's very cute pudding-y baby was waiting outside. Tegan I just gave him a massive feed out the front actually. Yumi So cute! So cute. I love a little fat baby. Tegan He's quite a chonker. Yumi A chonker. Do you really feel like you're nailing it when you've got a little chonky baby? Tegan Yeah, there's something like almost kind of primordial about that I think. Yumi Oh definitely. Tegan The fruits of your labour. Yumi The fatty wrists and the little fat hands. Tegan Yeah, the croissant thighs. Yumi While we can talk endlessly about the deliciousness of a baby's fat rolls, as women we often can't find that same tenderness for our own bodies as we grow up. Starting from when she was a teenager, Teagan had a tricky relationship with how she looked. Tegan I would eat and exercise to punish my body. I received messages really early and very clearly that my body wasn't the ideal. Yumi In high school, Teagan started dating a guy who some thought was out of her league, including her teacher who told Teagan she should count herself lucky that he picked her. Tegan Because I wasn't one of the, I guess you know, the super gorgeous girls. Yumi Really? Tegan Yeah. Yumi So it was like, whoa, you did alright for yourself. Tegan Yeah. That was absolutely the message. And I feel when I look back on that now that that really stuck, that went in. And so it created this relationship with my body where I thought of it not as like an instrument but as an ornament. Yumi Did that impact how you felt having sex? Tegan Absolutely it did. I was not present during sex at all. It was about being as far away from the presence as I could be really. And really focusing on what was happening for my partner. And definitely not confident or comfortable. I would say that when I was younger, most of my experiences I would have used alcohol, you know, to kind of get through. Yumi In the couple of years before getting pregnant, Teagan started mending her difficult relationship with her body. And then when she fell pregnant for the first time, she felt that delightful sass of appreciation. Tegan I felt hot when I was pregnant. Like I would catch myself in the mirror and be like, ooh, she looks good. Yumi After the birth of her first baby, Teagan felt empowered by what her body could do. Tegan Giving birth is a wonderful experience, but it's also deeply traumatic to your body. Like it's a huge thing. It shouldn't be downplayed in any way. And I remember sitting up in hospital bed. I work in a maternity hospital, so I actually had her at my work. Yumi Wow. Tegan Yeah. And wanting to take her around to show my colleagues. Like literally, like, look what I did. Like I was so proud of my body. Yumi But when she took her baby home, Teagan was overwhelmed by the amount of work and had unrealistic expectations about what she should be able to do in those early postpartum days. Tegan I thought that you should go for 5k walks three days after having a baby. Like I thought that, because I didn't know any better. Yumi The gruelling slog of those newborn days were made harder by the fact that Teagan was still in the middle of Melbourne's now infamous COVID lockdowns. Tegan I had absolutely no idea what I was doing and didn't have a community around me to support me in that. And absolutely wasn't able to have anyone come into the home to care for me. I didn't really have a lot of choice other than to kind of get up and start cooking straight away and start doing the laundry straight away. Yumi Teagan wanted to make sure she had a different experience after the birth of her second child. Tegan I really rested as much as I could on the couch and took care of my body, you know, and really tried to respect it as much as I could for what it had done. I was lucky enough to have a postpartum doula who came and provided some care to me every week with a massage. And then to culminate at the end of six weeks, she gave me this beautiful ritual called a closing of the bones, where for five hours, she just absolutely loved on me. So she gave me this beautiful massage with medicated warm oil. It was divine. And then I sat in this gorgeous steam tent that she'd built and had a beautiful herbal bath. And then she wrapped me up from top to toe, like my head, my eyes, my feet. She was really paying honour and respect to me and my body as a woman who'd just given birth. Yumi Tegan's ceremony of getting wrapped up tight like a mummified cat might not be for everyone, but it sounds brilliant to me. And it's what she needed to feel validated. Maybe to make the transition from Egyptian mummy to yummy mummy, functional mummy, not dead mummy, happy mummy. We can actually benefit from hearing people say, hey, well done. You created life. Good job. That was really hard and you did it. Tegan When you conceive and then carry and then birth a baby and then feed them, you know, if that's what you do, that's enormous. Yumi Just hearing you say this, Teagan, feels healing for me, actually. Tegan Mmm, that's beautiful. Yumi Did it feel revolutionary for you? Especially given that you have already had a baby and done it differently. Did this version of it feel like you were doing something very bold? Tegan Yes, it did. It felt like I was reclaiming a lot of things and it felt like the ultimate kind of feminist act in a lot of ways. Like we're told after we have babies in lots and lots of different ways that it's about, you know, bouncing back, you know, who can get to the cafe quickest, you know, who can go to the gym quickest. And those things are fine if that's your choice. But I also think it's important to know that there's other ways and, you know, the choice to stay home and to make sure I had this beautiful postpartum care felt like I was really taking something back and saying, actually, what I've done is worth this and I am worth this as well. Yumi You said you used to do punishing exercise and punishing things with food. What does that mean? Can you explain what you mean by that? Tegan Yeah. So I'd be like, okay, well, I've eaten X, Y, Z. So I need to go and do a really tough vinyasa yoga class now. Like I need to do a hot vinyasa yoga to balance the scales really. That was what that was about. Or I haven't gone to yoga or I haven't run this week. So I can't eat that bagel that I really want. For example. Or I just feel bad about it. Like I just feel really guilty about not exercising or eating things that I shouldn't eat in inverted commas. Yumi Yeah. So it's sometimes it doesn't change the behaviour, but you just got guilt around it. Yeah. Tegan Or I felt really ashamed. It's like, oh, I probably could look like Kate Moss if I didn't eat that bagel. Finally it was just the fucking bagel. Just one bagel. But since having my kids, I feel like I don't do that at all anymore. Yumi Tegan doesn't just accept that her body has changed since giving birth. She has a radical love for herself. Tegan I feel amazing. It seems like a bit extraordinary to me. Like I probably shouldn't feel this way. I feel like that's the message that we get. But I feel incredible. Yumi For myself, I also found giving birth was a bit of a leveller because there I was burdened with all those imperfections, but I still made this perfect baby. But listen, before we get too smug with post-birth body love, I do want to point out that a lot of the toll taken on the body from carrying pregnancies is debited long after delivery. It's like baby now, pay later, wait 10 or 20 years and suddenly you're cashing in your pelvic floor. The prolapse collector is knocking at your door. Oh, and urinary incontinence is coming to have a word with your undies. But listen, whether you have given birth or never have and maybe never will, I will repeat what I say to my own kids. The body that you have, it's like the car you're going to be driving until the day you die. Your car might not be perfect, but it's yours and you don't get to trade it in for another one. Your beautiful, unique, chonky or otherwise vehicle that carts around your soul and your thoughts and feelings and hopes and dreams. Why hate on the only car you'll ever drive? Make the best of it. It's a real tooter. Yumi This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor. It's produced by Elsa Silberstein. Supervising Producer is Tamar Cranswick and our Executive Producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.
ABC News
07-07-2025
- Entertainment
- ABC News
Emotional labour with Rose Hackman
Rose The patriarchy that we live in really expects women to be catering to the emotions of everyone around them constantly. Yumi Hey, before we get started on this episode, I want to confess that I've been feeling bad because about two months ago, it was my producer Tamar's birthday and I wanted to make her a cake to mark the occasion, but it landed on a real pinch point in my life and I just didn't have time. I think it's important to show people around you that you care about them. Rose Emotional labour is the expectation that someone will be in charge of communal wellbeing. It is the expectation, the responsibility of showing up emotionally for the people around you. Yumi This showing up is work that's invisible and deeply undervalued. Being considerate of the emotional needs of your community is often written off as something women are just better at because of our gender, like braiding hair or knowing when it's time to bake a cake. It's a form of work that's never acknowledged even though it underpins our homes, our relationships and even our economy. But emotional labour comes at a cost. By being the emotional heavy lifters, women tend to put their own needs lower on the list, making sure the emotional lives of our loved ones and friends are sorted first. Rose Hackman is a journalist and author who's been looking into the concept of emotional labour for over 10 years. Her book is called Emotional Labour. In it, she calls out the lack of recognition women get for doing all this exhausting extra work and makes the case that men need to get their acts together to ease our burdens and to build better, more equal relationships. I'm Yumi Stynes, ladies, we need to talk about emotional labour. As part of Rose's research, she looks at how the expectation of emotional labour falls on women in all the different areas of our lives. Rose So a woman walking down the street is going to be told to smile. A woman at work is going to be told if she's not constantly smiling at rest that she has resting bitch face. And at home, of course, women are charged with taking responsibility for communal wellbeing. Yumi Whether that's diffusing the tension at the family Christmas, mopping the tears on your kid who's just had a horrendous day at school or keeping the work wheels frictionlessly spinning by baking birthday cakes. Rose says that even though expectations of emotional responsibility are highly gendered, they're not related to biological sex. We weren't born this way. Rose Neuroscience research, psychological research very clearly shows that the types of skills that are associated with emotional labour are fundamentally human. They're not gendered. So boys, girls, men, women are perfectly able to feel and express empathy. It's just we are incentivizing one gender, one sex to constantly be performing those types of skills. Yumi So how did we get to this point where we're expected to put the emotional needs of those around us above our own? Rose says it boils down to the fact that we live in a society that prizes men far more than it prizes women. Picture us as the handmaids of fun. Rose It's about women being facilitators of people's experiences, being buffers of shock and pain and about men being the primary enjoyers of experience of life, society, et cetera. Yumi I feel like you're describing me, Rose. And I don't necessarily think it's all bad. In terms of helping people have a good time, showing leadership, caring about my community, whether it be a small group of friends or workmates, setting the tone and the same at home. I've got kids really, really managing their emotions and always being attuned, very attuned to the emotions of those around me. It is interesting though, when you think about men being not attuned, I can't even imagine. I cannot imagine for a second what it would be like to be misattuned or non-attuned to the emotional wellbeing of those in the room with you. So how do they benefit from that? Rose Totally. I just want to start off by saying that you're completely right that this kind of work is beautifully valuable. The problem is we live in a society that completely undermines, devalues this kind of work. I would say that the biggest way in which they benefit is time. And time might seem very simple, but it's actually huge. You know, over the last few decades, we've seen, especially in dual income households and straight dual income households, we've seen a lot of the domestic labour gap narrow, but not fully. And one of the ways in which I like to think about emotional labour, because of course there's a lot of domestic tasks that are not strictly emotional. It's not just emotional development and literacy in the household. Rose Although women are still expected to take charge of communal wellbeing, which has all sorts of knock-on effects in terms of what they do or what we do, all sorts of activities that no one wants to do, we will take on, you know, taking an aunt to the airport, making dinner, cleaning. Those tasks are not strictly emotional, but fundamentally we will do them because we often are saving other people from doing them or someone's got to do them. And also we understand that those simple tasks and actions fundamentally contribute to the makeup of a smooth, happy, loving household. Yumi And while driving your aunt to the airport means that she feels loved and you feel more connected to her, this kind of work means there's less time for play. In the US, there's an almost one hour leisure time gap per day between men and women. And it low key annoys me to think that they could have been driving Aunty Bobo to the airport and I could have been the one at home playing with myself. Rose Women come home from work and instead of a man might be able to take an hour to meditate or to go to the gym or to read a book. And still to this day, women are expected to be putting their extra time, their leisure time to work for the benefit of others. And I think that for those of us who sometimes feel exhausted, whether it's because we have children in our home or a lot of obligations that can really add up, one hour is really a life lived for yourself versus a life lived for others. Yumi If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you'll have heard me talking about the mental load. And yes, although there is some overlap between the mental load and emotional labour, they're not the same thing. Rose So the mental load really refers to specific part of overwhelmingly something that happens to women at home, which is the idea that they are responsible for the household. And that I like to illustrate it as the idea of having a lot of tabs, like computer tabs open in your brain at all times. They're keeping tabs on, do we need more soap? Who's picking up Susie from practice? Are we on top of the groceries this week? Oh my gosh, I need to check in with this cousin, this next door neighbour, this immediate family member. So that's the mental load. This idea that overwhelmingly very often women are tasked with being responsible for the household. And that means so many invisible, exhausting, interminable activities that they have to shoulder. Emotional labour is quite different. Emotional labour is the expectation that someone will be in charge of communal wellbeing. It is the expectation, the responsibility of showing up emotionally for the people around you. Yumi The term was first coined by academic Ali Hochschild in the 1980s, who was researching the work of managing feelings in the service industry. Rose She famously took the example of flight attendants who were not so much tasked with handing out food and beverages on airplanes, but were tasked really with conveying a feeling of safety, of care, of sexiness. And Ali Hochschild equated this emotional labour in the workplace to a form of emotion work, what she called it, that we'd long been accustomed to seeing women provide in private. Yumi So I think the flight attendant example is good because it's so clearly the management of people's experience emotionally. But can you talk us through a more rudimentary job situation like for instance, where I work, where we're not so much public facing, we're just dealing with people from our organization. How in a situation that's less about the service industry, are women expected to shoulder all the emotional labour? Rose There's been all of this research that shows that in male dominated industries, specifically white collar industries, where you might think that emotional labour is not a central part of the job. So a lawyer, an engineer, a journalist, men in order to get ahead need to do two things. They need to be confident and competent. So they need to be really good at what they do and really loud about being good at it. And women in order to be promoted, to get ahead in the workplace in white collar industries, they have to be confident, competent, and they also have to do emotional aid. They have to be other oriented. They have to be constantly providing an extra layer of other oriented traits of, you know, being a team builder. They have to actually be constantly performing often subservient expressions that reassure everyone around them that they're not actually threatening while also trying to show that their confidence of being good at their job. So it can often feel for women in white collar sectors, like they're very much stuck between a rock and a hard place and they're effectively being set up to fail. There is a litmus test that we apply to women in these white collar industries that absolutely do not apply to men. Yumi Further to that, in my two and a half decades of working in media, I don't think it's ever been a man who baked and brought in a cake for a colleague, ever. And yeah, making cakes is a real thing, as he's remembering that Tamar, my producer, has a dairy intolerance and he's also a great baker herself. So no packet mix nonsense here. That's all emotional labour. But the cake is also a stand in for all the labour we do in making sure people feel happy, included and cared about in a workplace. It mightn't be baking. It might be listening to people whinge. It might be making sure there are enough spoons in the office kitchen. Let's take the labour out of the workplace and into the home. When it comes to emotional work in heterosexual relationships, Rose says her research points to a pattern, that while men might be emotionally engaged early on in a relationship, as things progress, the burden of this labour falls to women. And in the long run, both sides miss out. Rose Because these are essential skills. If you don't train people to practise essential skills, you're effectively making them really not great at preserving positive relationships. So I know that the statistic here is that 70% of the time when a divorce is filed, it's a woman filing it. And there's been a huge discussion about a male loneliness epidemic, and the tragedy, the very real tragedy of male deaths of despair. The problem is when you cast one gender as being really good at emotions, and another gender of being not emotional at all, the problem is we're setting up boys and then men for failure. Because the skill set of forging positive relationships, of being someone that other people want to be around, of being thought of as someone who's really a kind, thoughtful, empathetic person. If someone doesn't have those skills, they're probably not gonna be able to maintain as many relationships as someone who does. And that is a huge driver for sickness, for isolation, for loneliness, and then all sorts of mental health diseases that end up being extremely dangerous to the people themselves and maybe even the people around them. Yumi I just want to agree wholeheartedly in what we see, which is men who are middle-aged and upwards really struggling to connect with others if they don't have a partner there to facilitate it for them. And you can see them floundering. There's so much dysfunction there. Rose Totally. And I think you hinted at what happens. I think a lot of the time, that expectation that women should be the emotional facilitators for men in romantic relationships, that ends up making a woman effectively the broker of social relationships, the broker of communal activity. Yumi And it's not just communal activity. Women are also charged with the role of bringing other people's emotions into equilibrium, especially our male partners. Rose There is some part of this that is weaponizing competence, and we can talk about it in a very light way. And then there is a part of this that is effectively you're training women to be buffers of tempers, to basically either try and get someone who's depressed back up or someone who's very volatile down. This is actually a very kind of dark, sordid training that we are enforcing as a society when we offhandedly tell a girl, a woman on the street to smile. We are telling her, you exist to facilitate the emotional experiences of the people around you. And if you're not doing that, we're going to remind you that's what you should be doing. Yumi There are real dangers when it comes to men not being able to manage their own emotional wellbeing. Rose One of the things that I really get frustrated as is a lot of the conversations that our policy people, our politicians have about divorce rates and marriages and birth rates completely ignores the fact that one in four women is going to be the victim of domestic abuse in her lifetime. So when you say that we need to figure out how to keep marriages alive, you're effectively saying you want to ignore a culture of women who are dealing with very volatile situations because sadly the nature of domestic violence as it stands is men beating up the women or the children in their lives. Yumi Does your research include what happens with lesbian couples? Rose Yes, my editor, if I'm being fully honest with you, who is actually a queer woman, wanted to make sure that we drummed home how unequal heterosexual couples were as a kind of essential, you know, the beginning of the book. Queer couples are much more egalitarian, but very often the person in the couple who takes on more of the feminized role ends up incurring a lot of the inequality that we are familiar with in straight couples. Very interestingly, actually, the data in the US also showed that among heterosexual couples, mixed race couples tended to be more egalitarian. And what you would maybe ponder for both of those groups, and I'll go more into queer couples in a bit, is that when you don't have a set cultural script, there is more opportunity to renegotiate the script and to have a conversation that feels maybe, you know, more adapted to not necessarily societal expectations, but the specificity of your individual circumstances. Yumi Rose isn't just looking at emotional labour from an academic, aloof perspective. As we all do, she has got skin in the game. Rose I got married at 24 after a relatively short courtship. And that first marriage was really, it was very clear to me in that very short-lived marriage that the expectation was that I should, you know, play a lot of specific roles, not ask too many questions, adapt to the career of the man I had married, and, you know, be a caregiver first and foremost. Yumi This uneven distribution of the emotional work in her first marriage came as a surprise to Rose. Rose My dad died at a really young age. It was just our mum and my two sisters. So I hadn't really witnessed on a familial level a degree of gendered inequality the way I then later went on to understand that, you know, it was so prevalent. Yumi Let's talk about emotional labour in the bedroom. What does that look like? Rose I'm so glad you brought up lesbian couples. A lot of the way in which traditionally we explained away the orgasm gap in heterosexual couples was this idea that women's bodies, which are so mysterious, and orgasms were just so hard for women, and it's just men's, you know, was just like much more straightforward. And also that men's orgasm fundamentally was the main event, which if you think about that, I couldn't think of a better way of understanding emotional labour inequality, the idea that men's enjoyment is central and women are there to facilitate men's enjoyment. And if they can like have a nice time, maybe while that's happening, then good for them, but that's not really what we care about. Yumi One of the ways in which heterosexual women put their own emotional needs beneath those of her male partner is by faking orgasms. Rose But a lot of us are not necessarily handed a script when we first start having sex. And yet the understanding that the boy slash the man is there to be catered to. And of course, then you have the literature on faking it during sex. You know, what's so fascinating to me when I did this research is I came across academic articles that didn't just show the prevalence of faking it during sex, which for women is still relatively high, but then also tried to understand why it was that they were faking it. And this one study really shows that women are faking it because one, it will actually accelerate men being able to enjoy sex to their full capacity. And two, because they understood that men feeling like they had performed to their women would then be able to have an orgasm themselves. Women, we're not all being told that this is what we have to do. And yet there is this fascinating phenomenon that women know they have to effectively stroke the ego of their male partner. Then if they're told, was it good? They have to say, yes, yes, yes, it was wonderful. Yumi If there's a woman listening right now who is faking orgasms. And I mean, the whole thing is so fascinating to me as well because I thought we'd all grown out. I thought we'd agreed as a cohort to stop doing that. But if there is a woman who's listening right now who's faking orgasms to stroke and protect the ego of her partner, what advice would you give to her? Rose So what I would say is ideally you need to have a very sobering conversation with your male partner because your pleasure, your enjoyment, your time is worth just as much as your partner's time and enjoyment and pleasure. And a new way of living, not just only for yourself, but for yourself and for others. It doesn't need to be either or, starts now. But I will also acknowledge because of the interviews and women I've spoken to over the last decade at this point, that I understand that for some people they're in a survival mode and they can't actually rock the boat. And if they can't rock the boat, what I would invite them to do is reflect on why that is and whether it's time to think about a situation I dynamic in a new way. Yumi You mean get the fuck out of there? Rose I do. I do. Yumi Should we be looking at ways of compensating the work of emotional labour, perhaps financially and in non-financial ways? Rose I mean, paying for emotional labour is always a bit of a provocative statement, sadly, in spite of the fact that as I mentioned, it's actually a central part of millions of jobs. Yes, I absolutely think that emotional labour should be paid for in the workplace that looks like actually giving raises to those essential jobs that we so depend on. We all know that more humane workplaces make for better workplaces, make for more resilient workplaces. You know, emotional labour should be part of a job description, very honestly. So that employee, worker doing emotional labour, even if they're an engineer or a journalist, actually have that emotional labour recognized, evaluated on it so it's not just, you know, shoved into the boxes of the women workers, the minority workers who feel like they have to do it. And then those who are good at it get rewarded for it. You know, right now, emotional labour is not part, we don't see it as a promotable skillset. We see it as something actually that's just more part of the support roles. If anything, someone who's really good at emotional labour is going to be less prone to promotion than someone, you know, who's refusing to do it. That's seen as more of a power case. So there needs to be a real adjustment that has to happen. Yumi So what Rose is saying there is that if I ever get around to making Tamar's birthday cake and we stick the candles in and we sing happy birthday, that is actually top-notch employee labour going on there, which should be recognized and potentially promoted. I understand the assignment and I'll get baking this afternoon. But what about our personal lives? How could this idea of compensation or reward work there? Rose Valuing emotional labour, you know, can look like a lot of different things. It can look like, I mean, ideally we go towards a world of open-ended reciprocity. So a world where we're not counting necessarily tit for tat, but we know that if we're showing up for a person or for a group of people, you know, we are acknowledging through those actions that we're part of an emotional network, that I'm a human being, I'm an individual, but I'm not operating all by myself. I am effectively surviving because of these other people around me. I'm going to show up for those other people, but I have to trust that those other people fundamentally also understand that they're part of the same emotional network and they're going to be giving back to me. Yumi I feel like as somebody like you who's so aware of this emotional labour, you'd see it in ways that maybe the rest of us aren't that switched onto yet. Have you ever experimented with going on strike emotionally? Rose Hey, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to get better and better at deciding when someone is owed my emotional labour and when someone is not. Another reason why I think the term, the framing emotional labour is wonderful, is because I think that previously we thought of women just being emotionally available 24 seven. That kind of emotional labour is an infinite form of work that should be just delivered to everyone nonstop. Yumi You know how Rose got married at 24? Well, she's not with that guy anymore. Rose I'm now married again, and I'm married to someone who's wonderful. And I met him in my thirties and we only got married a year and a half ago. And it's much easier to build a relationship with egalitarian aspirations once you understand more of the world, more of yourself and more, you know, the kind of person that is going to be a good fit. Yumi The thing I like about this is that there's nothing wrong with doing emotional labour. Things like helping your nut job friends remain on speaking terms with their workmates or hugging your children until they regulate and get all soft and relaxed and trusting. Those skills are gifts that we keep putting back into the world again and again. The thing that Rose helps us to understand is that the work is vital, should be shared across genders, acknowledged and rewarded, and that it doesn't spring from an inexhaustible well. We can get tired. We can say no. Being able to opt out of this labour, recognise that we are deserving of care ourselves and maybe even a couple of slices of that cake, that's the yum yum in this sum sum. Yumi This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungara and Gadigal peoples. Ladies, We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor. It's produced by Elsa Silberstein. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.
Pink Villa
03-07-2025
- Entertainment
- Pink Villa
Kim Go Eun, Kim Jae Won's Yumi's Cells 3 confirms cast for 2026 premiere: Know plot, character details, cameos and more
The long-awaited third season of Yumi's Cells has officially confirmed its release window. It is slated to premiere in the first half of 2026 on TVING. The new season comes with a fresh supporting cast lineup and promises a new chapter in Yumi's journey. Yumi's new life as a romance novelist Returning to the role that won hearts in Seasons 1 and 2, Kim Go Eun reprises her character as Yumi. No longer just an office worker, Yumi has reinvented herself as a successful romance novelist. After following her passion, she's now thriving in her career, but her love life remains unpredictable. The third season shifts focus to Yumi's internal struggles with romance and identity. Her "cell village," the playful personification of her inner thoughts, remains oddly quiet. That is, until Soon Rok enters her world. Kim Jae Won joins as Yumi's new love interest Actor Kim Jae Won takes on the role of Soon Rok, a new addition to the Yumi's Cells universe. With a soft smile and a sharp tongue, he's introduced as the latest producer at Julie Publishing, Yumi's publisher. He comes across as rational and reserved. However, working alongside the passionate Yumi sparks tension and chemistry between them. This leads to unexpected changes in both their lives and in her cell village. Returning favorites and new faces Familiar faces will also return this season. Jeon Suk Ho is back as Ahn Dae Yong, Julie Publishing's editor-in-chief who first discovered Yumi's writing potential. His on-screen wife, Yi Da, played by Mi Ram, also returns as Yumi's trusted confidante. Season 3 is also bringing in exciting new characters. Choi Daniel joins as Kim Ju Ho, a bestselling author and extroverted personality, managed by Soon Rok. His addition brings a competitive and comical energy not seen in the original webtoon. Jo Hye Jung plays Baek Na Hee, Yumi's assistant writer, whose upbeat, energetic nature contrasts perfectly with Yumi's introverted personality. Meanwhile, Park Se In appears as PD Jang, a producer who oversees Yumi's media work. Cameos that will delight longtime fans Longtime fans can also look forward to several special appearances. Sung Ji Ru returns as Yumi's loving father, Kim Man Sik. Meanwhile, Lee Yu Bi reprises her scene-stealing role as Ruby, the charmingly mischievous coworker who always brings laughs. Fans can expect more laughs, more heart, and plenty of internal cell chaos when the series hits screens in 2026.
International Business Times
01-07-2025
- Entertainment
- International Business Times
When Will Yumi's Cells Return for Season 3? Everything We Know So Far
Yumi's Cells season 2 finale teased the beginning of a new romantic journey for Yumi. The followers of this fantasy romance drama series are eager to meet her new love interest, Shin Sun Rok. According to the webtoon lovers, Yumi will get her happy ending with this new character. Though Yumi was not excited about meeting her new partner at work, her cells celebrated the return of the love cell. The biggest question is how Yumi and her brain cells will respond to the upcoming changes. Will this unexpected romance turn her life upside down? The audience can expect to watch a mature version of Yumi in the next season. Her brain cells could make bold and rational decisions so that she doesn't get hurt again. Here is everything we know so far about Yumi's Cells season 3, including the story, cast, premiere, preview, spoilers, and streaming details. When Does Yumi's Cells Season 3 Premiere? The highly anticipated third and final installment of the fantasy romance drama series is likely to be released in the first half of 2026. Who is in the Yumi's Cells Season 3 Cast? Actress Kim Go Eun will reprise her role as Yumi in the upcoming season. The sequel will continue to follow her, featuring her everyday moments and complex emotions of love. Yumi will appear as a successful writer in this season, which will feature an unexpected romantic journey for her. The actress recently teased the introduction of a mature and vibrant Yumi. She will entertain the viewers with her fresh charm and humour. "I'm honored and grateful to continue Yumi's story, which has many viewers. As an actor, playing the same character over a long period is both meaningful and special. I want to capture the various turning points in Yumi's life as she has grown over the years through Season 3. Since this journey began with Yumi in 2021, I hope to finish it well," Kim Go Eun shared. Our Blues actress Jo Hye Jung is returning to the small screen after three years through Yumi's Cells Season 3. Her agency, BH Entertainment, has confirmed the casting news. The actress will portray Na Hee, a young writer who admires Yumi. Kim Jae Won as Shin Sun Rok Yumi's Cells 3 has already generated buzz with the return of its original creative team -- writers Song Jae Jung and Kim Kyung Ran and director Lee Sang Yeob. The casting of actor Kim Jae Won as Shin Sun Rok increased the anticipation for this upcoming third sequel. He is the new producing director in the editorial department of Julie Publishing. His blunt honesty and sweet appearance reawaken Yumi's dormant cell village. Shin Sun Rok leads a peaceful life by following his routines. Unfortunately, his life takes an unexpected turn after he begins working with Yumi. He struggles to adjust to the turmoil of her emotional cell while keeping in check with his rational cell. His hidden, surprising charm will bring a refreshing change to Yumi's life. "It feels new to be joining a project that has received so much love. I will do my very best to create a wonderful Soon Rok in this series as well. I would be grateful for your continued support and love," Kim Jae Won said. What is the Plot of Yumi's Cells Season 3? The new season will follow Yumi after she becomes a star author with her efforts. Although she enjoys her fame as a successful romance novelist, she struggles with her love life. Her brain cells remain quiet until Shin Soon Rok becomes a part of her romantic journey. Will she get her happy ending this season? The fantasy romance drama series could answer all the burning questions the viewers have when the show returns with its third and final season in 2026.
ABC News
09-06-2025
- Entertainment
- ABC News
Jessie Tu, on miscarriage and doing motherhood her way
Yumi Hey ladies, before we start, I want to ask you a favour. We're looking for feedback. I'd love to know what you think about Ladies We Need To Talk and the sorts of things you want to hear about more on our show. What do you love? What topics are close to your heart? What things have we missed? And what would you love to hear less of? We've posted a survey on the Ladies, We Need To Talk website and in the show notes of the episode that you're listening to right now. If you could fill it out, it will help us to understand you more and help us to fashion the best possible episodes in future. Please take five minutes out of your day to fill out the survey. You'll be helping our show to be more your show. It's completely anonymous, so you can be brutally honest. Just don't say you love me because it'll make me cry. And thank you. Jessie It's the most weird and mind boggling thing to fall pregnant and to have this thing that is the most ecstatic, joyful thing in the world happen. Yumi Author Jessie Tu was pregnant with a baby she had longed for. But seven weeks into the pregnancy, the dream evaporated. Jessie And then for that to go away, it's just I don't think we have the language for it. I think that people are uncomfortable and don't know how to sit with grief, like the specific grief that is miscarrying. Yumi On a regular Sunday morning last year, Jessie, aged 37 at the time, was in her pyjamas in the courtyard of her house when she got a phone call telling her that the baby she thought was growing in her belly was no longer viable. Jessie She said the results have come back and they're not what we want. Yumi The doctor didn't use the word miscarriage in the call, but Jessie would become very acquainted with that word as she waded through her loss. Jessie It's a distressing, inexplicable kind of harrowing grief that you go through. Yumi I'm Yumi Steins. Ladies, we need to talk about writing your own motherhood script with Jessie Tu. Jessie Tu is a high achiever. She was a violinist before becoming an author and turned her classical musician past into inspiration for her first novel, A Lonely Girl is a Dangerous Thing, which made her one of Australia's most dazzling young authors. She's also the classic Asian diasporic kid, believing that a relentless work ethic and nonstop grind gets results. But that was something she had to unlearn in the unpredictable lottery of pregnancy. Even trying to conceive, she realised she couldn't be the model minority perfect A-grade student to get what she wanted. Jessie You spend your whole life as a woman being told, don't fall pregnant. This is how to not fall pregnant. And the moment you want to fall pregnant and it doesn't happen immediately, it is so discombobulating and it's such a shock to the system. Also because we as women are so resourceful. And what I mean is that if we want something, we know how to get it. Yeah. And there's one thing, there's one thing that we're told is so natural and common and ordinary. The fact that it wasn't happening month to month, like for me, it was, it drove me quite insane. Like I had to get a lot of, I talked to a lot of friends about it. I sought therapy about it. But yeah, I just felt like such a failure. Yumi And did it make the process of having sex with your partner weird or a bit more joyless? Jessie I know a lot of people said that. Yeah. It becomes like a chore. For me personally, I found it fine. I guess maybe because we'd been trying for less than a year. Yeah. So maybe it would have been different. But for me personally, no, it was still a lot of fun. Yumi Jessie didn't always want to be a mum. She grew up in a Taiwanese family and through her young eyes, their adherence to traditional gender roles was repellent. Jessie I think a lot of it just looked kind of oppressive. I saw the way my mother was asked, as most women of her generation were during that time, to give up her career aspirations, any kind of identity outside of motherhood and wifedom, when she got married at 24 and had four children within six years. And then all I saw of her the moment we migrated to Australia when I was four, five, was complete sacrifice, self-sacrifice. She had no identity outside the home. She was a chauffeur. She was the cook. She was a nanny. She was a caregiver. I just thought, I don't want to be like that. It just seems like so hard. And I never wanted to be invisible. And to see my mother have all her labour unacknowledged, it just made me angry. Yumi It made me so angry. So funny. I'm the youngest of four as well. And I remember thinking the exact same thing about my mum. It's like, why does she have to work so hard? So being a mother to you was being somebody who just gave and sacrificed herself. Jessie And was unrecognised. That I think was the most bruising to my ego. Yeah, right. Yumi No acknowledgement, no thank you, no gratitude. Jessie I think I've always saw marriage as a straight jacket for women. The men go out, do their thing. They could come home and still get praised at the workplace for just being a father, just for bringing in the dough. And the women were invisible back home. I just thought that wasn't the model of happiness that I wanted to pursue. Yumi It is a modern feminist conundrum. What to do when your attraction to men seems to put you in harm's way. Jessie Maybe because it feels a little bit like I'm giving in to male power. In the last few years, I've consistently and very actively and stridently questioned my heterosexuality because there are moments in my adult life where I thought it's a joke that I've been fooled into thinking that getting a man to validate and love me is just all a game. Yumi But look, she was straight. How annoying. And as Jessie came into adulthood, the men she was meeting were not making great ambassadors for dating or heterosexuality. Jessie I had, I want to say the word horrifying, but just like a series of very unpleasant dating experiences all through my twenties. And I realised upon reflection that it's because I was chasing a feeling. And the feeling is Hollywood generated. It's the feeling of being swept up, you know, butterflies in your stomach, all of those things that we are told by Hollywood and books to feel, to know that this is love, capital L. Yumi And then in 2020, Jessie was 33 when she found a connection. There was less capital L love at first sight and more capital R for real. Jessie It really came through weeks and weeks of just hanging out with him and being friends first and realising that I felt completely myself and comfortable. And I know this is cheesy, but he just felt like home as in like, he just felt like someone I had known for a long time and who I didn't need to put a mask on when I was around him. That was quite revelatory. Wow. It's that's so beautiful. And really the decision to become a parent was meeting my partner and realising that I can actually have a life where I parent a child and for my identity to not be totally annihilated. I think that was quite liberating. Yumi After dating for about a year, Jessie and her partner, Andrew, were on a weekend away in a little seaside town in New South Wales. Jessie He and I were sitting on an embankment, like just looking out onto the sunset, and I was just overcome by sheer beauty, like looking at the sunset, just sitting with him sitting next to me. And I just thought, I think it would be an incredible thing to bring someone who doesn't currently exist into the world because the world is and can be a beautiful place. I think for me, I'm very beauty driven, beauty in the sense that natural beauty, good things in the world. Like there was a change in my belief system that I was no longer as cynical as I was before, thinking this world is so messed up. It wasn't worthy of bringing a child into. But then seeing that sunset, just something changed in me. Yumi Your molecules got rearranged. I think so. Nothing like true love and a sunset to get those ovaries pulsating. So Jessie and Andrew got to it, having plenty of unprotected sex and dreaming about vast oceans and sun setting skies. And of course, we little tiny cute babies. But it wasn't happening for them. And each month that Jessie didn't fall pregnant was another crushing disappointment. Jessie My therapist said that every time you see blood in your underwear, it's a little bit of grieving because it's something that you hoped that would happen and it didn't happen. Yumi Eleven months into trying for a baby, Jessie was at the doctors getting an iron infusion and she had what she thought were cramps indicating an oncoming period. Jessie And my doctor, I sat down, was ready to inject the iron. She said, are you pregnant? And I said, no, I'm pretty sure I'm not. And she got me to do a test and then she sat down next to me and I could sense something was happening because she was chatting to the nurses secretively. And then she turned to me and said, you're pregnant. Yeah. And I was just really in shock. Like, I didn't believe her. Yumi Usually, those cramps meant that her period was on its way, but not this time. Jessie got in the car and drove home to tell her partner. Jessie He was elated. But I always foresaw the moment of knowing that I was pregnant. I remember thinking for the whole 11 months, I would literally put on a pair of joggers and run out on the streets and wave my arms around and scream with joy. You know, all I wanted was to be pregnant. Yumi But when the moment finally came, instead of running around screaming with happiness, Jessie was hushed by how utterly powerless she felt in this pregnancy. Jessie I was just wracked with anxiety from that moment on. Oh no. Because I was like, is this going to continue? The whole experience of falling pregnant, getting pregnant, having children is so fraught because you never know when anything could happen. Yeah. There is no moment of certainty. And then I hear my parents say, even when you do have a child and they come out healthy, you never stop worrying. Yumi So how much future imagining did you do in the first weeks of that pregnancy where you're kind of projecting forward? Not much, to be honest. Did you imagine what sort of mother you would be? Jessie An angry one. Yumi Oh, great. Why is that? Because of your mum? Jessie Because I'm just a very angry person. I'm quite impatient. Like if someone doesn't. Yumi You're describing me. Everything you say, I'm like, oh my God, this bitch thinks me. Jessie Yeah. Like if someone doesn't do something the way I want it in the time frame I want it, I'm like, just like, I get fucking angry. Yumi What about your child, your future child? Could you picture them? Jessie I tried not to, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. I know I had friends who, when they were pregnant, they would send me, you know, the tracking apps that would tell you how big. I could not do that. Because if I did mess carry, I didn't want to imagine this as a potential human being because I didn't want to jinx myself. Yumi Like most intelligent, reasonable women with over-achieving anxiety and a human growing inside their body, Jessie was obsessively Googling. Jessie I read on some website that said the most dangerous, like quote unquote dangerous time for a pregnancy was week seven to eight. Oh, well, that's doom and gloom. Yeah. Yeah. And then so when I hit around six, seven weeks, I started worrying a lot because I was like, every day I was like, is it going to be today? Is it going to be today? Yumi Jessie was seven weeks pregnant when she noticed there was light bleeding. But physically, she was feeling fine. Jessie I had a friend who said it's normal. Some women spot during pregnancy. It doesn't actually could mean anything. Just go for a blood test. And then I think one or two days later, my doctor called me and she said, are you sitting down? And I guess that's never a good opener. Yumi She wasn't sitting down, actually. She was standing in her courtyard on a very bright, sunny Sunday in April. And she stayed standing as she got the news. Jessie And she said, the results have come back and they're not what we want. She just kept saying they're not what we want. And I was like, what do you mean? Can you just tell me if this if I've miscarried? And she said, I don't think this will be a viable pregnancy. She kept using that kind of technical, medical language that I just frustrated me. It made the whole experience even more alienating and lonely that she just she couldn't just say the words. Yes, you've miscarried. She conveyed to me that my HCG levels had gone down. And then I consulted Google later and it said when HCG levels go down during a pregnancy, it means the pregnancy is no longer going to continue. I hopped on the phone with a friend who's a GP, discussed it. But they were also trying to just evade the whole yes, you've miscarried. Like they just didn't want to say that to my face. Yumi After Jessie took that phone call in the morning, she went to a family lunch for her mum's birthday. Jessie So my family, as traditional as that is, we're very, very transparent with each other. I'm very open with my parents and my siblings. They knew the journey I had been on to try and conceive. But because I was so anxious about the pregnancy, I didn't tell anyone. It was just my partner and I. Because there's this ridiculous rule that you're supposed to wait till 12 weeks. I'm saying it's ridiculous because I just hate any kind of sort of assumed law about things like that, like when to tell people. And so we didn't tell them. And so I rocked up to this gathering and I knew I couldn't hide it. I couldn't just sit there and pretend. And so I sat down and my parents and I, we speak in Mandarin together. And I said to them, my Mandarin is the equivalent of like a nine or ten year old. So my vocabulary is not very good. So I didn't know the word for miscarriage. So I basically sat down and said, Mum, I have something to tell you. I was pregnant and now I'm not. I found out this morning, the doctor told me. And yeah, it was, I mean, I like rumbled into a ball of mess. Yumi Jessie's relationship with the Mandarin language is complicated. Like a lot of children of migrants, she spent her younger years absolutely determined to be an excellent English speaker and consciously narrowing the use of her parents' native tongue. The day of that family lunch, Jessie didn't have the words in Mandarin to tell her mum what was happening in her body. It was only much later that she could face looking it up. Jessie I had to Google what the word miscarriage was, and it's liu hai. And liu hai is two words, which mean like flow and asset. Flow as in like kind of flow out. And then an asset, like a property. Liu hai. Yeah. It was, to me, it felt a bit comforting because I guess at that point, I wanted to feel like what had happened to me was not the loss of a human life, even though it was, but like just something that was not meant to become a human being. Like I found comfort in the language, the sort of clinical separation of like the flowing of asset, the sort of letting like something out of your control, basically. Yeah. Like the way the river flows, the water flows down a river. The following day we went to the early pregnancy clinic and did an ultrasound. And that's when they said, yes, it's confirmed. There's no heartbeat. Yumi And that ultrasound, was that the one where they put it on your belly? Yes. Yeah. So you're looking at the screen looking for a fetus. Jessie Well, I think I was a bit too upset at that point. I didn't look at the screen. Yumi So you told your family, did you talk to other people in your life about having a miscarriage? I Jessie did. I was quite, I'm an overshare. Yeah. I like it was telling like, well, I wouldn't say strangers, but just people I met. I remember a few days after it happened, I hadn't seen a very sort of distant acquaintance at this book event. And I just told her immediately, I just miscarried. And it was so like, for me, it was cathartic because I wanted people to know what I'd gone through. And then often what would end up happening is that once I revealed my miscarriage, honestly, half the time, the women I spoke to, they would say, I also. Have experienced miscarriage. And that's my way of connecting and connecting through grief. You know, I really needed to do that just to center myself and my story. And also hear from these women who nine times out of 10 went on to become mothers that I could become a mother one day, even though this has happened. Interesting. So Yumi it's part of the process. I think so. Yeah. That's a really beautiful way to look at it. Why do you think there's still a taboo around talking about miscarriage? Jessie I think that people are uncomfortable and don't know how to sit with grief, like the kind of specific grief that is miscarrying. It's the most weird and mind boggling thing to fall pregnant and to have this thing that is the most ecstatic, joyful thing in the world happen. And then for that to go away, it's just, I don't think we have the language for it. And I think that people don't know how to react when someone says, I've miscarried. I think a lot of people are just uncomfortable or embarrassed or just would rather not go there. We turn away from things that are ugly or messy or inexplicable. People want to comfort you, but I guess a lot of people just don't know how to, Yumi especially men. Oh, really? They were the most speechless? Jessie I think men are still not rewarded for being emotionally intelligent. And so I know that part of the reason I was so vocal about my own miscarriage was that I had a male acquaintance friend who didn't want his, like his partner had miscarried and he didn't want it to come out. I just think any kind of blanketing of things that happen in our life is unhealthy. Like maybe there's someone who's listening right now who can think of something that, you know, is private things in our lives that should remain private. Poo. Yumi Talking about poo at dinner table. Yes. Okay. Yes, that's true. I think talk about poo with people that love to talk to you about poo, but not at dinner. Jessie Yeah, just not at dinner. Not at dinner. Yeah, yeah. But on the whole, like everything about life, especially the most private things should be aired out. Yumi After the miscarriage, Jessie started trying for a baby again, pretty much straight away. Because Jessie I'm an insecure high achiever. Yumi You're such an Asian. So is that the only reason why? Was the clock ticking as well? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Jessie I was like almost approaching 37, I guess. And with each month, I was just thinking, my chances, biologically speaking, are getting Yumi lower and lower. How did it feel to want this thing so desperately, but not be able to control the outcome? Jessie It can drive you mad. And I think it drove me mad. Yeah. It was one of the most challenging things I had to negotiate psychically, just to come to terms with, this may not actually happen for me ever. Wow. To try and accept that, I think was a giant leap for me. And I really pursued that line of thought every day. Because in my 20s, when I was really struggling to find a male partner who I could see being with, and who respected me as an equal, like I struggled real hard to be in a healthy relationship. And I remember during that time struggling in dating, just thinking, this might not actually happen. Yeah. Like I might just be alone for the rest of my life. And to try and just think, that is okay. It's a huge psychological, emotional endeavour, I guess. With this whole baby making process. This is completely out of my control. You have some news. I'm currently pregnant. Yes. Yumi Congratulations. Jessie Thank you. How are you feeling about it? I'm in my second trimester now. Okay. But the first trimester was harrowing and unpleasant. A lot of crying for absolutely no reason. A lot of inexplicable emotions, highs and lows. The crying would come in the oddest moments. And I couldn't explain it. And I think I was maybe grieving the life that I was going to now no longer have because of this impending baby about to come out into the world. Yeah. And I felt so bad because I know how much I wanted this baby. Like, I just kept thinking I should be elated and that's it. I should only have this one side of emotion. Yeah. Because I had been on the other side of not being pregnant and known and being so jealous of women who were pregnant. And then for me to be pregnant and then not being grateful for it, I felt I was somehow morally corrupt or I wasn't being fair to God. Like, I'm not a believer, but I was like, why am I not grateful? Yumi Jessie spoke to a midwife about that guilt and was told that it is really common to feel guilty and something that a lot of pregnant people go through. It's like, fuck, I wanted this for so long, but I'm also feeling terrible all the time. And it sucks. Jessie We're meant to be just grateful. We're just meant to be ecstatic and excited. I think the excitement is coming now only because the nausea has faded a bit. But when you're nauseous, like you can't think of anything else. Yeah. It's horrible. Yumi Yeah. Tell me about telling your parents that you were pregnant. Jessie I just said to them very casually one day, oh, my period hasn't come in a week. That's all I said to my parents. And then the next time, because we hang out quite regularly, and the next time I saw them maybe two weeks later, I was like, yeah, it still hasn't come. So I think the implication... Oh, my Yumi God. Are you serious, Jessie? Jessie So I just said, and then by I guess by fourth or fifth week, I was like, I think I'm pregnant. Yumi And how were they reacting? Were they just giving you side eye? Like, OK. Yeah. Yeah. They're very, very understated people. Yeah. They were Jessie just like, OK, cool. It was just like a day by day thing because they knew what had happened in the past to me. So they were like, OK, well, just take care of yourself. Like, I've seen a new side to my dad I've never seen before. He's been so caring. I don't know. He's a man of that generation. And suddenly his youngest daughter is pregnant. And he's like, every time he sees me now, he's like, how's the how are you? How's the baby? How are you? Like, he asks me questions. Whereas like my whole adult life, when I see my dad, like he doesn't ask me questions. Yumi Very undemonstrative people, your parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you allowed yourself to start making plans for this unborn baby? Jessie The only thing we've done is have casual conversations about names. OK, that's all. Yumi When Jessie was young, she saw her mother's motherhood and marriage as painful and endless servitude. But as she steps into being a mum herself, she sees a future where she gets to keep a hold of who she is. Jessie I'm being a mother in 2025, as opposed to in the 80s. And I won't be a mother of four. I have more resources. I live in a country that has so many wonderful resources for women going through pregnancy and going through a lot of mental health changes in the early years of motherhood. And in a society that is more open about encouraging women to talk about the practice, the state of being a mother. I'm very grateful for all of that. And I am in a relationship where my male partner doesn't believe in gendered roles. So I think it will be different. I hope it will. I hope it will be different. Yumi There is so much in our lives that we want to control but can't. We can't control finding the right person to fall in love with. Although, by God, we can try. We can't control the mysterious moment when a single sperm cell swims up to an egg and in that precise second dives in. Although, we can and do try to control that too. And we certainly can't control the random moment when the heartbeat of a fetus just stops. Jessie too formed a tough shell and a ferocity to cope with the world she grew up in and that served her. But she's learning to surrender control to the unpredictability of this messy life. She's softened into loving a good man. She's softened into letting her parents comfort her. And guess what? The truly awful parts? They were made way more bearable by sharing her pain with other women. So yet again, at the end of another Ladies We Need To Talk episode, I'm thinking about holding my ladies real close. And also staying away from sunsets. I have too many kids for that. You said that you like fighting adversity together with friends. The thing that I want to recommend is extreme bushwalking. What makes it extreme? Well, it's got to be hard. OK. And you need to carry all your shit on your back. Oh, OK. And then you need to camp overnight. And invariably, someone will hurt themselves or fall over or shit their pants. So we're talking about poo now. And then you overcome it together. And then you experience nature and sunsets and like food when you're so hungry. And it's incredible. Do you think that could ever be in your future? I'm not a fan of camping. Yeah, I can see it in your face. As soon as I see it, I was like, oh, she's out. I've Jessie lost it. I've lost Jessie. But everything outside of sleeping on a sleeping bag. Yes. Yumi I'll get I'll convert you. I'll drag you into my car. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies, We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor. This episode was produced by Elsa Silberstein and Katie O'Neill. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.
