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Rewarding carbon-conscious consumers isn't radical—it's the future of banking
Rewarding carbon-conscious consumers isn't radical—it's the future of banking

Yahoo

time16 hours ago

  • Business
  • Yahoo

Rewarding carbon-conscious consumers isn't radical—it's the future of banking

Gabriele Buffo is a member of the Harvard Innovation Lab specializing in banking transformation and super app solutions. For all the innovation in fintech, the banking sector remains tethered to outdated metrics. Credit scores, income brackets, and spending levels continue to dominate assessments of trustworthiness. But in 2025, it's not your salary that should make you bankable, it's your behavior. It's time for a financial system that rewards not just how much you spend, but how you live. Banks today face an existential dilemma. On one side are agile super apps already dominant in markets like China. They bundle commerce, lifestyle, and payments into seamless ecosystems. On the other hand, 86% of U.S. consumers expect brands to drive a positive change towards sustainability, with 77% losing respect when brands don't prioritize our planet over their profits. And 63% of consumers opt to purchase from brands that align with their personal ethics. Traditional banks, stuck offering points for purchases and fee waivers for deposits, are being left behind. Here's the uncomfortable truth: If banks want to stay relevant, they must stop playing catch-up on tech and start leading on values. Disclaimer: While I'm currently pursuing a master's degree in data science at Harvard, I'm also a member of the Harvard Innovation Lab specializing in lifestyle- and sustainability-focused super app solutions that use AI to reward sustainable lifestyle choices. Digitizing services or offering sleek apps is no longer sufficient. Gen Z and many millennials are increasingly choosing financial institutions and bank partners based on their values. They want assurance that if they make conscious decisions to reduce waste, eat healthier, or choose ethical products, their bank notices and cares. We reward airline miles, luxury spending, and stock trading. Why not carbon reduction, mindfulness, or sustainable food choices? There's a smarter, more future-facing loyalty model: one that integrates environmental, social, and governance (ESG) signals directly into how customers are scored, segmented, and rewarded. This isn't charity. It's business. Purpose-aligned engagement builds deeper loyalty, reveals new cross-sell opportunities (such as eco-loans for EVs), and even opens the door to alternative credit risk indicators (e.g., rent payments and utility bills). Some might balk at the idea of embedding lifestyle choices into financial products, arguing that it's invasive or biased. They might object that tying financial incentives to behaviors, like wellness or carbon impact, could cross a line, penalizing those who don't or can't opt in. But let's be honest: Banks already reward behavior; they've just been rewarding the wrong ones. The financial system has long incentivized volume over values. That was fine in the age of plastic cards and paper statements. But today's consumers live in ecosystems, not ledgers. They want their financial institutions to serve as life partners, not just service providers. A tiered-reward system that tracks and supports low-impact lifestyles is more than possible: It's practical. Imagine a world where someone who consistently rides public transit, eats sustainably, or improves their sleep gets lower loan rates or higher-yield savings. Or a platform that nudges users toward sustainability goals and rewards action with real financial benefits. These aren't pipe dreams. The technology exists. What's missing is institutional will. There are already early signs of movement in this direction. Forward-thinking fintechs are exploring behavioral indicators that measure financial responsibility through how people spend, not just how much they earn. Mastercard, for instance, has developed a Carbon Calculator in collaboration with Swedish fintech Doconomy. This tool allows consumers to track the carbon footprint of their purchases directly within their banking apps, helping them make more informed spending decisions. Over 50 banks worldwide have integrated this tool, aiding millions of users in aligning their spending with their environmental values. A behavioral approach also allows banks to be more adaptive and more human. Today's models often treat people recovering from financial setbacks as inherently risky, even when their day-to-day behaviors show discipline and intention. Of course, not all spending is created equal. Wellness apps and public transit aren't universal virtues, and what looks like 'positive' behavior to one person may seem indulgent or irrelevant to another. But that's precisely why nuance matters. A high earner spending recklessly with no debt is not necessarily a better credit risk than someone budgeting carefully after a layoff. The goal isn't to moralize spending: It's to contextualize it. In other industries, personalization is table stakes. Why should banking still rely on blunt instruments like static scores and raw income alone? Banks have spent decades becoming digital. The next leap is to become ethical allies: not with vague ESG reports or net-zero pledges, but through actual product design. Real loyalty is earned when reward systems reflect the values and aspirations of the people using them. In a 2024 Accenture report, analysts warned that banks risk losing customer loyalty and brand differentiation if they fail to integrate more deeply with broader digital ecosystems. Meanwhile, the Gen Z generation sees their financial provider as a reflection of their ethics, expecting better transparency and leading social change. The shift is clear: Consumers are managing meaning as much as money. They aren't just looking for convenience; they're looking for alignment. Banks that ignore this are already losing relevance; one in five consumers switches banks due to poor customer experiences and lack of relevance. Banks that move now have a narrow but powerful way to lead, not with the marketing language but with product actions that reward the kinds of decisions the world needs more of. This is no longer about positioning. It's about permanence. The future of banking will be defined by trust, not just trust in security but trust in values, vision, and shared purpose. The banks that win will be the ones bold enough to say that what you believe matters more than what you earn. The opinions expressed in commentary pieces are solely the views of their authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and beliefs of Fortune. This story was originally featured on

GoTo, Indonesia's onetime tech darling, banks on fintech to give its superapp a second life
GoTo, Indonesia's onetime tech darling, banks on fintech to give its superapp a second life

Yahoo

time17-06-2025

  • Business
  • Yahoo

GoTo, Indonesia's onetime tech darling, banks on fintech to give its superapp a second life

The Southeast Asian super apps GoTo and Grab have a lot in common. Both started in the early 2010s to fill a hole in the on-demand, private-hire transport and delivery service sector before moving toward the idea of a super app (much like what is seen in China), later adjusting their strategies to streamline offerings. Now, after a decade or so, Grab (No. 128 on the Fortune Southeast Asia 500) has arguably risen to the top. The firm's on-demand services are available in eight of Southeast Asia's 11 countries, while GoTo's on-demand arm, Gojek, is lagging in the sector's market share and has exited all Southeast Asia markets for on-demand services save for Singapore and its home market, Indonesia. But GoTo (No. 266) remains formidable in Indonesia, the region's largest market—so much so that the rumor mill is spinning with talk of Grab seeking to buy some, or nearly all, of its chief competitor. Grab has denied reports of acquisition talks. And even if GoTo were to agree to sell its on-demand services to Grab, the deal would likely need to be cleared by regulators in Singapore and Indonesia. Still, the very fact that the topic has drawn so much attention signals a recognition that GoTo has lost the on-demand sector battle. Instead, the company is making a big bet on fintech to drive future growth. With 'G' names, green branding, and ride-hailing roots, Grab and GoTo have long been locked in rivalry. Grab's ascendance to a position in which it can snap up slices of GoTo's business can be traced back to how the two companies diverged from their early days, eventually leading to Grab's regional expansion and GoTo's regional retreat to focus almost entirely on its home market. Grab, established in 2012 as MyTeksi in Malaysia, moved quickly to expand into other Southeast Asian countries: It entered the Philippines, Singapore, and Thailand in 2013, and Vietnam and Indonesia a year later. GoTo, founded in 2010 as Gojek in Indonesia, didn't expand into Vietnam until 2018, entering Singapore and Thailand the following year. But it made commercial sense for Gojek to entrench itself in its home turf first, says Daniel Seah, an assistant professor of law at Singapore Management University, whose research areas focus on technology. 'The size of the Indonesia market is the bee's knees within Southeast Asia,' he adds. 'Over 50% of the population is under 30 years old, and it has one of the highest mobile and internet penetrations within the region.' Whereas Grab focused on 'horizontal expansion,' involving strategic acquisitions and fintech infrastructure, Seah explains, GoTo focused on 'vertical depth' in Indonesia's market. Fortune Asia's executive editor Clay Chandler chronicled the battle between the rivals in 2019, with a similar finding: Grab preferred partnerships and joint ventures that allowed it to reach more markets faster, while Gojek opted for partnerships through acquisition that enabled tighter control of its home market. Gojek's then CEO, Nadiem Makarim, believed the super-app model would win in the long run. He quickly expanded its suite of offerings, creating several other services like GoMassage, GoClean, and GoGlam. Although Grab also created its own set of services, it more quickly pivoted away from them, saving costs at an earlier stage. 'The size of the Indonesia market is the bee's knees within Southeast Asia. Over 50% of the population is under 30 years old.' In 2018, Grab acquired Uber's Southeast Asia operations, which 'strengthened its regional dominance,' Seah says. 'This strategy consolidated its market share, early user acquisition, and cross-border brand entrenchment across Southeast Asia.' Etta Rusdiana Putra, an analyst at Maybank Sekuritas Indonesia, says that working with the likes of Uber allowed Grab to gain expertise at a faster pace and learn from the previous failings of its partners. He also pointed to under-the-hood investments: 'One of the key aspects is about the platform itself, meaning it's the cost of maps and cost per order.' Grab built its own hyperlocal mapping system, and has been using it since late 2022. It has said on earnings calls the improved efficiency and accuracy have resulted in cost savings. Meanwhile, Gojek was steadfast in building out in Indonesia. It evolved into GoTo in May 2021, merging with Tokopedia, Indonesia's leading e-commerce company, to form Indonesia's biggest tech startup. The rationale was perhaps obvious: Collaboration would allow both Gojek and Tokopedia to tap into their user base for GoTo's own financial services, a business where margins are higher. But while teaming up with an e-commerce venture seemed good in theory, external factors posed significant challenges. TikTok entered the e-commerce business in Indonesia in April 2021, changing the landscape. Owned by China's ByteDance, it's a behemoth compared with GoTo in terms of financial resources, pumping in money to drive consumer habits toward social commerce. Indonesia quickly became an important market for TikTok Shop, whose success prompted the Indonesian government to ban its operations in late 2023 when Jakarta accused TikTok Shop of predatory tactics. The value of GoTo's consumer loan book for Q1 of 2025 The increase in GoTo's consumer loan book from the same period last yearSource: GoTo earnings call David vs. Goliath competition aside, there's also the question of whether moving earlier into Singapore, a high-income country with a small population, instead of focusing heavily on Indonesia, the region's largest economy but whose GDP per capita pales in comparison with Singapore's, would have helped GoTo. Last October, Kevin Aluwi, one of Gojek's cofounders and now a venture partner at Lightspeed, argued that Singapore is Southeast Asia's most important market. He claimed that while the city-state had 1% of Southeast Asia's population, it contributed 23% of Grab's revenue in 2023. The country had the highest concentration of what he called 'power users,' consumers with enough income to spend on comfort and experiences. Aluwi pointed to data compiled by the World Bank: The monthly per capita income of Singapore residents was $5,957 in 2023 compared with $388 in Indonesia. So while Indonesia, with its large population and annual average GDP growth of 4.2% from 2015 to 2024 represents an attractive market, Singapore was arguably an easier market for a startup focused on providing services requiring frequent consumer spending. While Aluwi was still optimistic about Southeast Asia's growth potential, he noted it's a diverse region made up of individual economies at varying stages of development. The pandemic ended the mid-to late-2010s easy venture fund money for tech startups as investors looked for more immediate returns on investments and exit strategies. GoTo consequently wound down its suite of non-finance and non-mobility-related services over a three-year period, allowing it to save on incentives. Its shareholders also appointed Patrick Walujo, one of Gojek's early backers, as CEO in 2023. His focus: turning GoTo's finances around. In its two most recent quarters, the company's on-demand services turned positive on an adjusted earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization (Ebitda) basis. Indonesia's TikTok Shop ban also presented an opportunity. In early 2024, TikTok resumed its e-commerce operations in the country after buying a 75.01% stake in Tokopedia worth $1.5 billion. Analysts Fortune spoke to said the deal enabled Walujo to monetize an expense-heavy platform, allowing GoTo to receive an e-commerce service fee every quarter. Niko Margaronis, a former research analyst at BRI Danareksa Sekuritas, says Walujo also made the company more 'focused' after going through different leaders who emphasized growth and valuations. 'Under Patrick, it's a very clear distinction of transiting from growth toward a cycle of profitability. GoTo has improved significantly and is more focused toward efficient operations,' he says. A big part of that focus is a pivot to fintech, GoTo's long-term play regardless of whether it retains its on-demand services business or gets bought out by Grab or another company. On an October 2024 earnings call, GoTo started reporting its financial services results ahead of its on-demand services business, signposting where the company's attention is directed. GoTo's consumer loan book grew to 5.72 trillion rupiah ($344.83 million) for the three months ended March 2025, a 108% increase from the same period the year before. Its financial services are also positive on an adjusted Ebitda basis. While GoTo's on-demand services and financial services segments are adjusted Ebitda positive, analysts see a longer runway for GoTo's fintech arm, even if it's starting from a lower base. 'Financial inclusion in Indonesia is relatively low,' notes Margaronis. A 2023 ISEAS–Yusof Ishak Institute report estimates that about 80% of Indonesia's population is either unbanked or underbanked—exactly the kind of market where a smartphone-friendly fintech provider can thrive. To put things in perspective, Bank Mandiri, ranked No. 23 on the Fortune Southeast Asia 500, has about 41.7 million accounts for 35 million customers as of March 2025. Bank Central Asia, ranked No. 36, also has about 41 million accounts. These large Indonesian financial institutions have also entered the digital finance space, but GoTo's advantage is that it's a tech-first company not bogged down by legacy banking services and systems. GoTo created a stand-alone GoPay app in July 2023, months after Walujo joined. It uses less mobile data, making it easier to access for those in developing cities outside Jakarta using less powerful smartphones. Many businesses in Indonesia also accept e-wallet payments, and GoTo's payment platform is accepted in many parts of the country. The hope, then, is for GoTo to convert those using its e-wallet into banking customers, whether they are drivers; micro, small, or medium e-commerce enterprises; or just people buying stuff online or booking rides. GoTo holds a 22% stake in Bank Jago, which allows users to access banking services, such as savings accounts. Regular digital banking activities would then allow GoTo to accumulate data that could augment its existing consumer loan business and possibly enable it to provide other services like investment and insurance products. Loans can be a revenue driver, as fintechs sometimes charge higher interest rates to cover the increased risks of lending to people traditional banks often don't extend loans to. The fintech focus also comes at a time when GoTo is setting its sights solely on the Indonesian market; GoPay is a for-Indonesia play. Yet the fintech bet comes with challenges. Any potential deal involving Gojek is still uncertain; Walujo told the Financial Times in March he was open to anything that enhances shareholder return in the long term. It's also unclear if any deal will affect operations with TikTok through Tokopedia. GoPay is currently available as a payment option on TikTok Shop, which gives GoTo user data to build credit profiles. Losing access to that, coupled with the loss of access to Gojek data, could make customer acquisition more expensive. And the middle-income squeeze in Indonesia amid rising costs and a stagnant job market means people might not even have enough cash to save. So while financial services may be the calculated long-term bet, the question remains if the Indonesian market is ready for such a service from a tech startup. And if it isn't, that could make GoTo even more vulnerable to a takeover. On May 7, a Reuters report quoting anonymous sources said GoTo would sell off its entire international unit and operations in Indonesia except for its fast-growing finance arm. When Fortune reached out for comment, Grab declined to discuss any deal-related reports, and GoTo pointed to a May 8 filing on the Indonesia stock exchange. In it, the company's secretary, R.A. Koesoemohadiani, said GoTo receives offers from various parties from time to time, but had not decided on offers that may have been known or received by the company at the date of disclosure. In June, Grab went further, denying that it had been involved in acquisition talks related to GoTo. As GoTo deal speculations continue to swirl, one thing is certain: The Indonesian startup is preparing itself for a slimmed-down fintech future, a sector where the reward may be substantially higher than in the ride-hailing space. This articles appears in the June/July 2025: Asia issue of Fortune with the headline 'A second life for a super app.' This story was originally featured on Error in retrieving data Sign in to access your portfolio Error in retrieving data Error in retrieving data Error in retrieving data Error in retrieving data

Grab logs double-digit April-May growth as rides and orders climb across SE Asia
Grab logs double-digit April-May growth as rides and orders climb across SE Asia

Malay Mail

time11-06-2025

  • Business
  • Malay Mail

Grab logs double-digit April-May growth as rides and orders climb across SE Asia

KUALA LUMPUR, June 11 — Grab Holdings Limited, South-east Asia's leading superapp operating across the deliveries, mobility and digital financial services sectors, reported solid growth in key operating metrics for April and May 2025, with gains in both mobility rides and on-demand gross merchandise value (GMV) despite macroeconomic uncertainties. In a statement, the company said on-demand GMV for the two-month period rose 19 per cent year-on-year, in line with its earlier guidance shared during its first quarter earnings. Growth in mobility rides continued to outpace overall GMV, increasing by 23 per cent from the same period in 2024, underscoring continued momentum in user acquisition and engagement. Deliveries GMV for the same period grew by 20 per cent year-on-year, with Grab attributing the performance to its focus on product innovation and affordability initiatives aimed at driving higher frequency and customer retention. Its Indonesian operations stood out, registering consistent sequential gains in both metrics during the period as the company executed on its focus of driving affordability and expansion in the country to benefit driver-partners, merchant-partners and customers. Grab plans to reveal additional performance details during its upcoming second quarter earnings call, which it will announce in due course. — Bernama

Wonder, Marc Lore's food tech startup, is planning to go public in early 2028
Wonder, Marc Lore's food tech startup, is planning to go public in early 2028

Fast Company

time05-06-2025

  • Business
  • Fast Company

Wonder, Marc Lore's food tech startup, is planning to go public in early 2028

Billionaire entrepreneur and Wonder CEO Marc Lore has confirmed that his food and restaurant technology startup is planning for an initial public offering. And though it won't happen right away, he offered a very specific timeframe. 'We're going to IPO [and we're] kind of working backwards from March 30, 2028,' Lore said on Thursday at Fast Company 's Most Innovative Companies Summit in New York. 'Whether we hit it or not, we will see.' He added that a full board of directors is in place and that the restaurant technology startup wants to 'look and act like a public company' by the end of next year in preparation for the future offering. 'So all of 2027, we get four quarters of practice,' Lore said. 'That was really important to me to get four quarters of practice where we're giving EPS guidance, having quarterly earnings calls, doing the comp committee, treating it like a public company. So when we go public in Q1 of 2028, we've already had that muscle.' He predicted an accelerating growth rate for the business, continuing through 2028 with $5 billion in revenue, and additional 'big growth' in 2029. The 'Amazon of food' grows up Wonder, which Lore has described as a kind of 'Amazon for food and beverage,' has brick-and-mortar restaurants and a vertically integrated food delivery app. Lore is working to revolutionize the food and restaurant space, building a 'superapp for mealtime,' blending food delivery, AI-driven nutrition, and smart restaurant tech. The company most recently secured $600 million in a funding round backed by Google Ventures, for a post-funding valuation of $7 billion, according to PitchBook. Wonder ranks No. 45 on Fast Company's World's Most Innovative Companies list for 2025. The ultimate goal? To become the platform that meets all your food needs, while embracing personalized dining, driven by AI. Lore's Wonder not only owns the delivery platform but also the restaurants on its platform, with locations spanning 25 or 30 different restaurants across every cuisine type—from steakhouse to burgers and barbecue, Chinese, Italian, Mexican, Greek, Middle Eastern, and Spanish tapas. The startup has also acquired a number of food companies, including Blue Apron, Grubhub, and the media brand Tastemade. When asked by Mansueto Ventures CEO Stephanie Mehta why an an IPO the goal, Lore replied, 'I am really excited about having that public currency.' The entrepreneur has founded a number of notable companies, including which he sold to Walmart nine years ago. 'I think there's so much growth and potential in this business that we could put a lot of capital to work, even post-IPO,' Lore said. 'I'm excited to do some big acquisitions.'

Saudi startup Ejari plans to scale as demand grows
Saudi startup Ejari plans to scale as demand grows

Arab News

time17-05-2025

  • Business
  • Arab News

Saudi startup Ejari plans to scale as demand grows

RIYADH: Property tech startup Ejari aims to build a full-service real estate 'super app' as it positions itself at the center of Saudi Arabia's rapidly digitizing housing market with its rent-now, pay-later model. The company, founded in 2022, is moving beyond flexible rental payments to offer furnishing, maintenance, and relocation services through integrated third-party partnerships. In an interview with Arab News, CEO Yazeed Al-Shamsi said Ejari's approach is reshaping the renter experience by offering a streamlined, digital alternative to the country's traditional leasing system, where tenants are typically required to pay six or 12 months upfront. Al-Shamsi said the platform is now preparing to widen its offering beyond residential rentals, targeting commercial and industrial leases as part of a broader plan to become a real estate super app. He told Arab News that the idea for Ejari was sparked by his personal experience as a student in the UK, where he struggled with upfront rental payments demanded by landlords. 'That was the first time I ever struggled with rent,' Al-Shamsi said. 'The solution was that an insurance company would come in and guarantee your rent.' After returning to Saudi Arabia, and facing similar rigid payment structures in the local market, he and his co-founders set out to address the challenge head-on. Ejari's core business model centers on leasing properties from landlords in bulk payments, then subleasing them to tenants through installment plans. 'We pivoted six to seven times before landing on our current model, which allows us to lease the property from the landlord with a bulk payment and then lease it back in installments to tenants with a higher price,' Al-Shamsi said. This structure, he added, creates a win-win dynamic: landlords receive their payments upfront, while tenants benefit from affordable monthly payments. The plan is to start activating different types of rent on the offices, shops, malls, as well as the industrial sector. Yazeed Al-Shamsi, Ejari CEO The platform, which currently operates in 17 cities across eight regions in Saudi Arabia, is part of a growing cohort of startups targeting financial accessibility in the real estate market. In its first year, Ejari reported generating over $30 million in service demand and has since seen that figure rise above $50 million, all with minimal marketing investment. 'This is off a very modest marketing spend of probably just over a hundred thousand dollars,' Al-Shamsi said. Despite being in operation for less than two years, Ejari is already seeing strong financial indicators. 'Our revenues are very healthy. Our loan book is very healthy. We've grown probably over 10 times between 2023 and 2024,' Al-Shamsi stated, noting further growth early in 2025. Still, he acknowledged the challenges in achieving profitability. 'We're a long way from profitability, but it is something that we've been keeping on top of mind. The current phase is growth.' Al-Shamsi emphasized Ejari's differentiated approach compared to traditional financing companies. 'Banks, financing companies — they're doing 20, 30, 40 things at one time,' he said. 'Versus us, where we're just trying to do one thing. And as soon as we perfect it, we can then start doing other things.' The vision for Ejari extends well beyond rent facilitation. The company's long-term strategy is to become a real estate super app, providing a full suite of services throughout the customer lifecycle. 'Today, we're helping the customer with payment facilitation. The customer moves into the apartment — it's an empty apartment. We help them furnish it. They live in it. A light bulb goes off — we help them fix it. Tomorrow they want to move — we offer a button they hit, then a team comes and helps them move,' Al-Shamsi explained. The company aims to enable this ecosystem through partnerships with existing service providers, integrating their offerings into Ejari's platform. The company is also expanding its focus to include commercial segments such as offices, shops, malls, and even industrial spaces later this year. 'The plan is to start activating different types of rent in the offices, shops, malls, as well as the industrial sector,' Al-Shamsi said, adding that the company balances growth with operational focus to ensure it doesn't 'have our efforts captured around too many things, then the value of that doesn't become additive.' To drive its customer acquisition strategy, Ejari is leveraging real estate marketplaces. Al-Shamsi cited an ongoing partnership with a platform he described as 'the local version of Property Finder in Dubai,' which has an 80 percent market share and 3 million unique monthly visitors. Ejari's recent $14.65 million seed round reflects growing investor interest in Saudi Arabia's maturing proptech sector. Alongside Partners for Growth, BECO Capital, and Alinma Pay, other investors included Rua Ventures, anb seed, Vision Ventures, and Aqar platform. The round, held in October, comprised both equity and debt, with the latter provided by California-based PFG. The capital will be used to enhance its core technology platform, scale team capabilities, and expand into value-added services. Looking ahead, Al-Shamsi said the company's immediate focus for the first half of 2025 is to deepen market penetration and build internal capacity. 'The focus remains on the current product in a very big way,' he said. 'Growing the team, building capabilities, building the technical capabilities that we need to be able to expand to whatever we want to.' While the company's default rates remain high — hovering at 13 percent to 15 percent — Al-Shamsi appeared undeterred, stating that this was due to a planned and carefully executed strategy to test the market. 'But again, when we started, we thought that this play would be mainly in the major cities. But surprisingly, the market takes you where it wants to go. We have demands from small villages, small cities in the north and south and east.' With demand increasing from both urban and rural markets and a substantial seed round now secured, Ejari is preparing to consolidate its position in Saudi Arabia's evolving rental economy. Al-Shamsi expects revenue growth to remain strong through 2025, forecasting another significant jump. 'I'd say close to that 10 times figure. But maybe 8 or 7 times.'

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