Emails discussing nurse probe should not have been written, Peggie tribunal told
She was placed on special leave after Dr Upton made an allegation of bullying and harassment and cited concerns about 'patient care'.
Ms Peggie has lodged a claim against NHS Fife and Dr Upton, citing the Equality Act 2010, including sexual harassment; harassment related to a protected belief; indirect discrimination; and victimisation.
The tribunal resumed in Dundee on July 16 after an initial set of hearings in February.
On Tuesday, Dr Kate Searle, a consultant in emergency medicine, gave evidence and denied 'deliberately concealing' an email sent on January 5 2024 by fellow consultant Maggie Currer, with six potential witnesses plus Dr Upton included.
A judicial order was made in January by the tribunal, however documentation emerged during the hearings in February and an IT trawl was commissioned which Dr Searle said all clinicians involved complied with.
Barrister Naomi Cunningham, representing Ms Peggie, said: 'I want to suggest you deliberately concealed it to conceal wrongdoing of colleagues.'
Dr Searle said: 'It would be dishonest to do that and I'm a doctor who acts as honestly as I can at all times.'
In her evidence, Dr Searle said that she had no concerns about Dr Upton's allegations as the General Medical Council requires 'honesty and integrity'. However, she said she was 'never informed' that a referral to the Nursing and Midwifery Council had been made, the tribunal heard.
She said that she emailed Dr Upton with others included later in January to give an 'update' on the investigation. But during cross-examination, Dr Searle admitted 'that we should not have written these things in a group email to witnesses'.
Ms Cunningham said the email on January 5 2024 was 'seriously embarrassing to the respondents' and said it 'appears to be an intention to set up and co-ordinate a group who should not be talking about this as they're witnesses'.
She added: 'It says 'information must not be shared outside this group as risk of foot in mouth syndrome – it is quite a serious risk of foot in mouth syndrome'.'
Dr Searle said: 'I can appreciate that in hindsight we should not have written these things in a group email to witnesses.'
Ms Cunningham quoted from Dr Upton's evidence, including that using female changing rooms was 'a thing I have been instructed to be the most appropriate', and describing biological sex as a 'nebulous dog whistle'.
Dr Searle denied telling the junior doctor to use female facilities, and said: 'Definitely no instructions were given.'
She agreed that biological sex was 'significant', but when the term 'nebulous dog whistle' was put to her, she denied knowing what it meant.
Ms Cunningham said: 'I think it must follow that anyone who describes biological sex as a 'nebulous dog whistle' would be talking obvious nonsense.'
Dr Searle said: 'I'm not sure what that means.'
The witness said she emailed Equalities lead Isla Bumba on December 8 2023 as Dr Upton felt 'uncomfortable' about Ms Peggie 'self-excluding' from the female changing room, but said she 'didn't recall' raising the possibility of taking it further, as mentioned in an internal investigation.
She said she Googled policies around self-identification, and added: 'I'm not a law expert – if you Google it, it comes up under Equality Act, there are many references to toilets and changing rooms. I subsequently emailed Isla Bumba who is much more expert in Equalities than me. She agreed there is no policy.'
The consultant denied that she perceived self-exclusion as 'misbehaviour'.
Dr Searle said: 'We would have discussed it if Dr Upton was very uncomfortable and it was affecting them'.
She said a discussion would have involved 'compassion and kindness', but added: 'It doesn't sound otherwise like there's anything to take further.'
Ms Cunningham said: 'At the time you discussed it with Dr Upton you considered this to be misbehaviour, she (Ms Peggie) was behaving badly and making him feel uncomfortable.'
However, Dr Searle said: 'Beth felt uncomfortable that Sandie appeared to not want to engage.'
Ms Cunningham said: 'My question was: both you and he regarded Sandie's conduct in removing herself a form of misbehaviour?'
Dr Searle said: 'I don't agree we would have classed it as misbehaviour.'
Ms Cunningham said: 'I think you've already confirmed that email to Isla Bumba on December 8 was prompted by a conversation about Sandie removing herself from the changing room when he was there, that's right?
'You ask if there's any policies around transgender staff and suggest Dr Upton might be keen to help develop some; is it fair for the tribunal to infer the possibility of developing policies to make it easier for Dr Upton to take matters further?'
Dr Searle said: 'No, I don't agree. I think there needs to be an NHS Fife policy on how everyone can feel comfortable in changing areas of their choosing.'
The tribunal continues.
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STV News
2 hours ago
- STV News
Emails discussing nurse probe should not have been written, Peggie tribunal told
Emails between witnesses discussing an investigation into a gender critical nurse who was suspended following a dispute with a transgender doctor 'should not have been written', a consultant told a tribunal. Sandie Peggie was suspended after she complained about having to share a changing room with transgender medic Dr Beth Upton at Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, Fife, on Christmas Eve 2023. She was placed on special leave after Dr Upton made an allegation of bullying and harassment and cited concerns about 'patient care'. Ms Peggie has lodged a claim against NHS Fife and Dr Upton, citing the Equality Act 2010, including sexual harassment; harassment related to a protected belief; indirect discrimination; and victimisation. The tribunal resumed in Dundee on July 16 after an initial set of hearings in February. On Tuesday, Dr Kate Searle, an emergency medicine consultant, gave evidence and denied 'deliberately concealing' an email sent on January 5, 2024, by fellow consultant Maggie Currer, which included six potential witnesses plus Dr Upton. A judicial order was made in January by the tribunal, however documentation emerged during the hearings in February and an IT trawl was commissioned which Dr Searle said all clinicians involved complied with. Barrister Naomi Cunningham, representing Ms Peggie, said: 'I want to suggest you deliberately concealed it to conceal wrongdoing of colleagues.' Dr Searle said: 'It would be dishonest to do that and I'm a doctor who acts as honestly as I can at all times.' In her evidence, Dr Searle said that she had no concerns about Dr Upton's allegations as the General Medical Council requires 'honesty and integrity'. However, she said she was 'never informed' that a referral to the Nursing and Midwifery Council had been made, the tribunal heard. She said that she emailed Dr Upton with others included later in January to give an 'update' on the investigation. But during cross-examination, Dr Searle admitted 'that we should not have written these things in a group email to witnesses'. Ms Cunningham said the email on January 5, 2024, was 'seriously embarrassing to the respondents' and said it 'appears to be an intention to set up and co-ordinate a group who should not be talking about this as they're witnesses'. She added: 'It says 'information must not be shared outside this group as risk of foot in mouth syndrome – it is quite a serious risk of foot in mouth syndrome'.' Dr Searle said: 'I can appreciate that in hindsight we should not have written these things in a group email to witnesses.' Ms Cunningham quoted from Dr Upton's evidence, including that using female changing rooms was 'a thing I have been instructed to be the most appropriate', and describing biological sex as a 'nebulous dog whistle'. Dr Searle denied telling the junior doctor to use female facilities, and said: 'Definitely no instructions were given.' She agreed that biological sex was 'significant', but when the term 'nebulous dog whistle' was put to her, she denied knowing what it meant. Ms Cunningham said: 'I think it must follow that anyone who describes biological sex as a 'nebulous dog whistle' would be talking obvious nonsense.' Dr Searle said: 'I'm not sure what that means.' The witness said she emailed Equalities lead Isla Bumba on December 8, 2023 as Dr Upton felt 'uncomfortable' about Ms Peggie 'self-excluding' from the female changing room, but said she 'didn't recall' raising the possibility of taking it further, as mentioned in an internal investigation. She said she Googled policies around self-identification, and added: 'I'm not a law expert – if you Google it, it comes up under Equality Act, there are many references to toilets and changing rooms. I subsequently emailed Isla Bumba who is much more expert in Equalities than me. She agreed there is no policy.' The consultant denied that she perceived self-exclusion as 'misbehaviour'. Dr Searle said: 'We would have discussed it if Dr Upton was very uncomfortable and it was affecting them'. She said a discussion would have involved 'compassion and kindness', but added: 'It doesn't sound otherwise like there's anything to take further.' Ms Cunningham said: 'At the time you discussed it with Dr Upton you considered this to be misbehaviour, she (Ms Peggie) was behaving badly and making him feel uncomfortable.' However, Dr Searle said: 'Beth felt uncomfortable that Sandie appeared to not want to engage.' Ms Cunningham said: 'My question was: both you and he regarded Sandie's conduct in removing herself a form of misbehaviour?' Dr Searle said: 'I don't agree we would have classed it as misbehaviour.' Ms Cunningham said: 'I think you've already confirmed that email to Isla Bumba on December 8 was prompted by a conversation about Sandie removing herself from the changing room when he was there, that's right? 'You ask if there's any policies around transgender staff and suggest Dr Upton might be keen to help develop some; is it fair for the tribunal to infer the possibility of developing policies to make it easier for Dr Upton to take matters further?' Dr Searle said: 'No, I don't agree. I think there needs to be an NHS Fife policy on how everyone can feel comfortable in changing areas of their choosing.' The tribunal continues. Get all the latest news from around the country Follow STV News Scan the QR code on your mobile device for all the latest news from around the country
Daily Mail
2 hours ago
- Daily Mail
Boss of trans doctor in case of nurse suspended for challenging medic's use of female changing room denies she 'deliberately' concealed a 'seriously embarrassing' email from tribunal
Lawyers for a nurse suspended after complaining about sharing a changing room with a trans medic have accused a group of senior doctors of hiding an email in a bid to conceal alleged wrongdoing. Sandie Peggie, 51, is suing NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton after she was suspended for confronting the trans doctor when she was made to change next to her in a female-only changing room. Yesterday lawyers for Ms Peggie claimed that a consultant in emergency medicine at the hospital had failed to hand over a 'seriously embarrassing' email to the tribunal. Naomi Cunningham KC claimed Dr Kate Searle failed to hand over the email which showed an alleged attempt to 'set up and coordinate a group' of witnesses in the investigation into complaints made against Ms Peggie. The accusation came as Dr Searle - the senior medic who supervised Dr Beth Upton and helped complete a report following the incident between the trans doctor and Ms Peggie - gave evidence to the tribunal in Dundee. On Tuesday Dr Searle denied 'deliberately concealing' an email sent between six potential witnesses discussing an investigation into Ms Peggie. During cross-examination, Dr Searle was asked about a number of emails, including one to six respondents referring to a 'small need to know group' to help avoid 'foot in mouth syndrome'. Ms Cunningham KC said there was 'something a bit odd going on here' as there were separate chains with the same subject line, which looked as if they were connected but she said there were earlier messages in the chain which appeared to have been deleted. Ms Cunningham KC said an email looked as if it had not been submitted to the tribunal when it should have been, and there was a further email that should have appeared at the bottom of a chain that was 'for some reason, chopped off'. 'But on the face of this email, it is quite understandable, isn't it, why those involved in that small need to know group might have preferred not to have it looked at in the course of this tribunal,' the lawyer said. She added that the email was 'seriously embarrassing' to NHS Fife and Dr Upton. She said: 'It talks about a live investigation. It says in terms that Esther [Davidson, Ms Peggie's supervisor], who a few days earlier and then again until the end of February is going to be the investigator, it says in terms Esther cannot do it, as she has been involved in the discussions with Sandie previously. 'It appears to be an intention to set up and coordinate a group of people who should not be talking about this investigation to each other because they are witnesses. 'It says in terms this information must not be shared with anyone outside this group, and it talks about the risk of foot in mouth syndrome. It is in itself, quite a serious case of foot in mouth syndrome, isn't it?' Dr Searle said she could 'appreciate that in hindsight, we should not have written these things in a group email to witnesses'. 'And having done that, everybody involved in that chain had quite good reason to prefer that it shouldn't see the light of day,' argued Ms Cunningham. Dr Searle responded: 'I cannot comment whether this email was withheld. I don't think you can prove that these two emails are linked. 'And when we were all asked by the IT department to do a thorough search of our emails, we did so, and this email was produced.' Ms Cunningham said: 'But you were asked to do some degree of search of emails on the previous trawls, and this email wasn't produced. Was it? You didn't produce it in time for the first part of this hearing, in response to the January 3 order.' Ms Cunningham said there were six people copied on the email. She asked if all those copied in had agreed between them that none of them would produce it. 'Absolutely not,' Dr Searle replied. Ms Cunningham said: 'I would suggest to you that you deliberately defied an order of the tribunal to conceal your own wrongdoing and that of your colleagues.' 'I absolutely do not agree with that,' Dr Searle said. 'If you had done that, it would be dishonest. Wouldn't it?' Ms Cunningham asked. 'It would be dishonest to do that, and I am a doctor who acts as honestly as I can at all times.' She agreed that it would be an issue for the regulator if she, as a doctor, had not acted with honesty and integrity. Hearings, in Dundee, continue.
Times
7 hours ago
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Trans row nurse Sandie Peggie was viewed as misbehaving, lawyer claims
A veteran nurse was viewed as 'misbehaving' for refusing to share a female changing room with a transgender doctor, her lawyer has claimed in a landmark tribunal. Dr Kate Searle, an A&E consultant, recalled being told about two occasions when Sandie Peggie left the women's changing facilities at Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, when Dr Beth Upton entered, causing the doctor to feel 'uncomfortable'. She said that Peggie could have been reported to her manager, but Upton, who is biologically male but identifies as female, deciding against pursuing the matter further. Peggie confronted Upton on the third occasion on which they met in the female-only space, on Christmas Eve 2023, claiming the doctor had no right to be there. This led to Peggie's suspension from work and an 18-month internal investigation, in which the nurse was cleared last week. Peggie had been warned that she could have been sacked, after a 30-year career, had the health board found against her. The nurse is taking action against NHS Fife and Upton, claiming she faced harassment and discrimination as a result of the changing rooms policy. Searle was Upton's line manager and, giving evidence on Tuesday, said that the doctor had informed her about the two occasions, in August and October 2023, in which Peggie had left the changing room when Upton entered, without saying anything. Documentation showed that Upton had been given the option by Searle to 'take the matter further' in late October that year. Searle said that, had Upton pursued this option, it could have meant an informal conversation 'between parties' or talking to Peggie's manager. 'At the time you discussed this with Dr Upton both you and he [Upton] considered Sandie's choice to remove herself from the changing room if he was there, to be misbehaving, didn't you?' Naomi Cunningham, Peggie's lawyer, said. 'She was behaving badly and making him [Upton] feel uncomfortable.' Searle replied: 'Beth felt uncomfortable that Sandie appeared to not want to engage, she was the only one behaving like this and that was why Beth felt uncomfortable with someone behaving differently like that. I don't agree we would have classed it as misbehaviour.' The tribunal has previously been told how Searle rallied behind Upton after the doctor raised a formal complaint about the changing room row. Upton later took sick leave due to the anxiety resulting from the confrontation. The consultant said she had checked when introducing Upton to the department, in August 2023, that the doctor was comfortable using the female facilities. Searle agreed with Cunningham that she had proceeded on the basis that it wasn't 'anyone else's business' whether Upton, who began transitioning to live as female in January 2022, was going to use the women's changing room or not. 'Beth identifying as a female has every right, under the Equality and Human Right Commission Act [sic] to use the facilities under the gender in which she identifies,' Searle said. However, she went on to admit that many women may feel uncomfortable about taking their clothes of in the presence of a man. Cunningham put it to Searle that her suggestion that she might have facilitated a conversation between the nurse and Upton 'about why she wasn't willing to take her clothes off in a room that he was present in' would have been 'a very long way from kind or compassionate' to Peggie. The consultant had earlier said possible approaches to resolve the situation of Peggie leaving the changing rooms when Upton entered could have involved a discussion of 'views between people' or a speaking to Peggie's 'line manager.' Searle added: 'That's not how I would have directly approached them nor how I did directly approach it. I was suggesting ways that you might manage a situation when two parties are uncomfortable. 'We would have discussed, if Dr Upton felt very uncomfortable and it was affecting them in coming to work, then it would have been appropriate to take it further, whether it's just a discussion between parties to say how can we work through this together, with compassion and kindness and to make sure everyone is safe.' Cunningham put it to Searle that Peggie was clearly feeling uncomfortable with sharing facilities with Upton, after being told about the two occasions in which the nurse self-excluded from female changing rooms. The lawyer asked: 'What steps did you take to offer her any compassion or kindness?' Searle replied: 'I didn't make that approach.' Meanwhile, Searle was also confronted with emails between witnesses involved in the investigation into Peggie's conduct. An email sent on January 5, 2024, stated that 'information must not be shared outside this group as risk of foot in mouth syndrome — it is quite a serious risk of foot in mouth syndrome'.' Searle said 'in hindsight we should not have written these things' but denied deliberately attempting to 'conceal the wrongdoing of colleagues.' The email had not been provided initially in disclosures of evidence by NHS Fife. The tribunal continues.
