Zak Starkey on Being Fired, Rehired, and Fired Again by the Who: ‘These Guys are F-ckin' Insane'

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6 days ago

The past few months have been quite a head-snapping time for Zak Starkey. The roller coaster began April 16 when the Who fired the drummer after three decades of solid work ('The band made a collective decision to part ways with Zak'), continued three days later when Pete Townshend announced Starkey was back in ('Zak is not being asked to step down from the Who'), and climaxed a month later when Townshend reversed himself ('After many years of great work on drums from Zak, the time has come for a change').
In a new interview with Rolling Stone, Starkey says he still isn't sure exactly where he stands with Townshend and Roger Daltrey, who are kicking off a world tour July 20 in Italy. 'I spoke to Roger last week,' Starkey says via Zoom from his home studio. 'He said, 'Don't take your drums out of the warehouse, we might be calling you.' What the fuck? These guys are fuckin' insane! I've been fired more times than Keith Moon in ten days.'
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At this point, Starkey truly has no clue what's happening with the Who, even if the safe money is on Scott Devours playing drums on their upcoming tour as planned. Starkey is focusing most of his attention on his new Britpop supergroup Mantra of the Cosmos, which features Shaun Ryder and Mark 'Bez' Berry of the Happy Mondays, and Andy Bell of Oasis. Their new track 'Domino Bones (Gets Dangerous)' — with special guest Noel Gallagher — just dropped, and more songs are on the way.
We chatted with Starkey — the son of Ringo Starr — about the formation of Mantra of the Cosmos, his feelings about Oasis touring without him, his long tenure in the Who, what happened behind the scenes as he was fired, un-fired, and fired again, and his feelings toward Townshend and Daltrey.
Let's start with Mantra of the Cosmos before we delve into the madness of the Who. What are the origins of this group?In 2020, a good friend of mine named Hartwig Masuch, who was the CEO of BMG, came to me with an idea of a Britpop supergroup…. I was like, 'A Britpop supergroup? You think I'm going to call Johnny Marr, Liam Gallagher, and Paul Weller, and they'll go, 'Wow, what a fuckin' great idea that is! Let's all get our egos in one room and it's gonna go great!' I went, 'I'm only a bit cool. But I know those guys, and they're really cool. And even I don't want to do that. If I'm not in, they won't be.''
So, what finally compelled you to form the band?I did a two legs of an American Who tour a few years back. And I found myself warming up to the Happy Mondays every night. I've always loved the Mondays. My favorite vocal performance has always been 'Tart Tart.' And one of my favorite lyrics. It's just so real.
We finished the tour, I went down to Jamaica, and I just thought, 'Wow, a supergroup based on beat poetry with Shaun Ryder. That would be amazing! And Andy Bell too! He thinks outside of the box.'
So, I called Shaun and told him the idea. He goes, 'How many times are you going to get asked to join a new group in your sixties? Let's do it.' I said, 'Will your friend [Bez] do it?' He goes, 'He already is. He just doesn't know yet.' And then I called Andy and he said he'd do it too.
At one point, I thought it would be great to get Sting because he might enjoy playing one note for 14 minutes a night instead of 500. But [Happy Mondays] manager Alan McGee talked me out of it. It turns out he talked me out of it because he didn't want us to get successful and shut down the Mondays, and he'd lose his biggest fuckin' paycheck.
That's smart.Not far as I'm concerned! We've got this crazy, experimental thing going on. But we recorded two songs and got a deal with BMG, which was such a great deal that I knew it would never last. But we did get a great deal of money because these guys changed music. I just had an idea, but these guys changed music completely. And we did four shows, and then I started suggesting we put our own money in, but Alan McGee was on the floor, needing a defibrillator.
How did Noel Gallagher get on the new song, 'Domino Bones?'Noel thinks Shaun is like Britain's Bob Dylan. As soon as I started this group, I got texts from Noel Gallagher saying, 'You've got Britain's Bob Dylan. Send the tunes. Whenever you've got a tune, just send it.' Noel listened to a track I sent him, and said, 'It's all fuckin' drums. What am I supposed to play?' I said, 'Gimme a week.' And I wrote music to it and put the pretty piano on it. I used at least half of one of Noel's choruses. I used one of Shaun's too. It's really a remix, but they're such nice guys I gave them both a third of the publishing.
Are you hoping to book shows soon?Thera are no plans to do that because the ripple effect of Oasis, Happy Mondays got offers they can't refuse. And Andy's in the greatest rock band of my generation. So, basically, no plans to play live. If we played live without them, it wouldn't be the concept of the whole thing.
When you first head about Oasis reforming, did you hope they'd ask you?I was in the Who. And last time they asked me, I was in the Who, and it got a bit weird. But this time, I talked to them both. I did tell them both on text, 'Why the fuck aren't I in your band, man, helping make it the greatest rock band in the world again?'
What did they say?They said, 'You're in the Who.' And Liam is happy working with Joey [Waronker] since they've been working with him for a while now.
In the Who, was it tougher to please Roger or please Pete?Financially, philosophically, or sexually?
Musically.Well, it's really hard to answer because I don't want to make anyone sound like they don't know what the fuck is going on in music, but with me and Pete, we catch fire. Pete calls it 'catching fire.' When we start, it's almost like be-bop with two Fender stacks. He's Charlie Parker with a Stratocaster. He kicks everything off. I don't listen to the bass player much. I listen to Roger. And in my left in-ear is just Pete, nothing else.
If he turns his tone down a bit, I can hear everything he does. And I can read his glute. He used to stand in front of me and stare in my eyes. That was kind of intimidating. But after about two weeks, he goes, 'Now we can communicate musically because we'd been doing that.' I can stare at the back of your head, and it still works.
Last year, Pete told that if was in charge of the band lineup, he'd get Simon Phillips on drums and Pino Palladino on bass. Did that upset you?Look at my Instagram. I texted him and said, 'You made me sound like the last chicken in the shop, dude.' He said, 'I meant my solo group. I want you in the Who.' I said, 'Are you going to call them up and change it? You aren't, are you?'
So he sent me all these lovely messages going, 'You're the greatest guy for the Who.' And he said he loved what me and my wife had done in Jamaica with our group. And he loved what the Mantras were doing. I posted the first part about how I'm great in the Who. And then I thought to myself, 'You've already crossed the line, so you might as well post the other part where he says you're great at everything.'
The next morning, I got this text that read, 'Have you gone mad? What's wrong with you? What the fuck is happening?' I said, 'You haven't read it, right? Someone told you.' I sent him a screenshot. He goes, 'OK, leave it. That's cool.' And I said, 'It really helps since I'm a nepo baby.' He goes, 'I'm a nepo baby too,' since his dad was a bandleader. He goes, 'I get it.'
He's the coolest fuckin' guy. During that whole time recently, Pete was a tower of strength to me. What an amazing guy.
When you rehearsed with the band for the Royal Albert Hall a few months back, did things seem OK? Was everything normal?You're fuckin' with me. There's nothing normal about them. These are the most crazy … you've got an abstract, conceptualist artist who thinks the band is an art installation. And then you've got another guy who is a street fighter. It's all very weird.
But if you look at the group ever since they started, it's the craziest group. And they've undertaken the crazy ideas, whether the rest of the guys understood it or not. Pete has taken so much on himself. He'll lock himself away for two years, come away with Quadrophenia, and go, 'You guys can just play on top.'
You're dealing with two very, very different people. And when me and Pete catch fire, probably anyone's going to get lost. And probably anyone will. But we won't. When we're onstage, it's like we're fucking. Offstage it can be a little awkward after those 15 minutes. But onstage, It's like, 'Cigarette, darling?'
What happened at the Royal Albert Hall. I know it was your idea to play 'The Song Is Over.'I've already got my gravestone. It says, 'Zak Starkey, the song is over.'
What happened during that song? Roger stopped it after a verse.He came in four bars early. And I just sent him an e-mail going, 'I watched you on TV last night, you were off.' It's 30 years in the group. It's like a family. But he came in four bars early. And he just asked for the drums to be turned up, and he couldn't hear the piano.
But I love Roger. He never misses a note. His voice is still so pure. It's like a laser beam. He always nails it. They've not changed one key since the start of conceptual art as rock & roll.
But he just got lost. He blamed it on the drums being too loud, and then it got made into this huge social media thing. And it freaked him out and he's going around doing solo shows, and saying it's 'fake news.' But it wasn't me. I was in the car and gone before they finished the last acoustic song. There was no argument in the dressing room. Nothing. I was halfway home by the time they finished.
You were fired a few weeks later. What happened?I got fired.
Why?I dropped two beats. I've watched that film three times. I'm looking on the floor, and I can't see it. If I drop two beats, where the fuck are they?
Did this supposedly happen during 'The Song Is Over' or a different song?I've got no idea. It was all a bit vague. It was just like, 'You're getting fired.' And Pete had to hang in there with Rog because I think it was…I don't know. I'm not going to name names or who did what. But Pete called me and said, 'Are you strong enough to fight for your job back?' I said, 'I'm not strong enough to have you do it for me. I don't want you doing it.'
And then a week later, Pete called me and said, 'How do you feel now?' I was like, [sad, whiny voice] 'Can I have my job back, please? Please can I have my job back?' They said, 'OK, well you have to do a public apology and admit you dropped two beats.' So I did. I posted that little toy duck playing the snare drum. Pete called me and said, 'Try again without the duck.'
I took the duck out, and I got my job back. And then 10 days later, I got a call saying 'It's never going to work. We want you to put out a statement saying you're moving on to do your own thing.' And I said, 'But I'm fuckin' not.' So I just left it and didn't do it. It would be a lie. I'd never leave the Who. I love the Who.
I'd also never let down so many people who fuckin' stood up for me. They were like, 'We saw that show. It wasn't you.' But it got uncomfortable with that sort of negative attitude to Roger, and I didn't want that to happen again. And then Pete did that statement that was so Pete. If you ask Pete what time it is at 2:00, he starts talking, and it's 2:15 by the time he tells you. And so it was a bit like that.
And I just wrote over it. I wrote, 'This is a load of bollocks, man. I got fired. I was asked to say this, and I'm not going to say it because it's a fuckin' lie. Just because it's the Who, I'm not going to let you walk all over me. We've had 30 years of great music. But I'm also not going to let it fuck me up. I'm going to tell the truth.'
Within a week, me and Roger were talking on the phone. Pete and I text all the time. We text about other stuff. But with Roger, we always talk about the Who. He goes, 'We haven't fired you. We've retired you.' I go, 'What's the fuckin' difference? You're the one at retirement age. What's happening?'
He goes, 'You've got so much going on with your other projects that we don't think you've got time to dedicate to the Who.' I said, 'You're doing 17 shows, man, in like a month. I've just been to Jamaica for seven weeks. I finished everything. I'm completely available.' And Roger went, 'Oh.' And I sort of left it there because I didn't want to confuse things.
If it wasn't your playing, what do you think caused this? Was it maybe financial?Roger is quite renowned…. I once asked John Entwistle if Roger still had the money from the last Who tour. He goes, 'He's still got the money from the first one.'
Roger told you not to take your drums out of their storage in case they need you. You really think there's a chance you'll be on the tour after all this?You have to ask Roger that since I don't fuckin' know. These guys are fuckin' insane. It's a good insane, and they have an addiction to friction.
I've never seen anything like this. In a very short period of time, you were fired, un-fired, fired again, and now they're saying there's a chance you'll come back?You know the greatest thing about it? My record came out yesterday, it's fuckin' great, and everyone loves it. And everyone knows about it. [Laughs] And everyone wants to talk to me because of the Who.
You've gotten more press in the past few months than any other time in your history.I'm the most famous drummer on the dole … welfare. I was on welfare as a teenager. I got thrown out of both parents houses simultaneously. I've got no idea why, but I was addicted to EVO-STIK glue at the time. My mom would be like, 'What's that? A beard?' And I was covered in glue.
It seems like you largely blame Roger for what happened.I don't blame anyone. I don't hold any grudges. It's the Who. Weirder shit than this has gone down. I've heard them say weirder shit than this. It's the Who — the maddest band there's ever been.
If they asked, you'd come back despite everything that's happened?Oh, man, of course I would. I said to Pete, 'Thirty years. In the 30 years, you put the bar so fuckin' high. What the fuck do I do now?' And I don't even just mean musically, but lyrically. Because if you're in a band, you've got to know what the words mean so you can transmit it properly. It's really fuckin' important. I said to Pete, 'What do you suggest?' I mean, the guy demands 200 percent every night, everything you've got. When you get back to the hotel, you're not physically tired. You're mentally tired from the whole conversation of it. It's like them jazz players that are counting to 24 in five seconds.
Do you think Scott Devours is a good drummer?I've never heard Scott, and I've never heard Joey. But I know they're not mods, and that's not a good sign.
The fans are definitely on your side. Many of them are upset about you not playing drums in Oasis or the Who.At the end of the day, if you've got Liam doing his fuckin' hair on the Jumbotron and you got Pete windmillin', every seat is going to be full.
The Who, you just don't know what's going to happen. If you think something is going to happen, the opposite happens. If you second guess Pete, he will play the opposite. You have to go with whatever you're doing, and not think.
You're not angry?No. I'm sort of honored because they're so crazy.
These things usually play out in private. This played out in public.I did that. I didn't want to get walked all over. It's sort of like the Goons meet Stanley Unwin. It was the principal songwriter of the Who, and Todger Daltrey … I'm taking the piss … have decided to sack the drummer and bringing formal charges of over-playing, which is what I was told first. The first thing they said is that I was overplaying. 'What? I'm just playing what that guy plays, no more.' I don't think Roger liked that very much.
Then Pete did that weird thing and I went public…it's because I'm not famous. I'm not a member of the Who. Who would want their problems? They asked me [to formally join the band] in 2006, and I was like, 'I don't want your problems, Pete. I don't want to sit in a fuckin' room with Roger and you and get involved, and get a little badge that says, 'Hey, I'm in the Who.' I can't work with anyone else, and the money is exactly the same.' But I didn't feel it was right for them to force me to lie.
Who told you to lie? Management?It was management. And when I told Roger that, he went, 'Well, he's his own man.' But he's fired me twice. Was that his fucking idea?
We're talking about Bill Curbishley here?Yeah. But Bill is my friend. He's the fairest manager I've ever met. And he fired me twice, and told me I was retired. When I told Roger that, he gave me this bullshit about having all this work to do that I can't do 17 gigs in the Who. Roger said that Bill is his own man. What a load of bullshit. What a lot of bollocks. He's not his own man. You can't start hiring and firing drummers because you're the manager.
It's the band's choice.Of course it is.
I'll let you go in a second, but..This is exciting, isn't it? It's like a Who album. It's like a fucking roller coaster, man. It's like Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy.
I'm seeing your dad tomorrow at Radio City.I'm very proud of him standing up for me.
What did he say?He said, 'I've never liked the way that little man runs that band.'
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