Latest news with #WingKuang
SBS Australia
09-07-2025
- Entertainment
- SBS Australia
Confronting the past: understanding our parent's mental health
People don't want to revisit pain, but sometimes those stories are so integral to people understanding why their parents act a certain way, Phoebe Mcilwraith Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Wing Kuang, Dennis Fang, Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what is it like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. And I'm Dennis, a second generation Chinese Australian. Wing, I've recently heard that you allegedly finished your one-year group therapy program. Tell me about it. So I signed up for this group therapy last year, because I just felt I really need to look after my own mental health, and it's one of the best decisions I've made. I got lots of insights into not only how to look after myself, but also my parents' mental health. I'm so proud of you, Wing. Do you think you now understand your parents better and where they came from? So when I started going to therapy in my early 20s, that was kind of like my first time interacting with the Western talk therapy. And there was always this fundamental idea that something that you feel right now could have its roots in your childhood. So for a really long time, I was really resentful to my parents. I was like, Yes, you did this to me, and that's why today I'm feeling this way. But the group therapy kind of changed my mind, and that's when I started to understand my parents' own childhood, which was during China's Cultural Revolution, and all of the sudden, things just make sense to me. Yes, yes. This is absolutely extraordinary, and is something I think about quite a lot, because think about all the childhood traumas that we tend to have. But when I think about my parents, they also went through the Cultural Revolution. Growing up with those traumas, what effects would that have when they grow up? Honestly, I think it might be the reason why my parents are quite closed off, why they're quite closed minded. I think this is what we might refer to today as intergenerational trauma, and it's basically when one generation, I believe, passes down their trauma, their problems, down to the next generation. This is what we're going to talk about in this episode, isn't it? Exactly. And we will be talking about our own mental health from the perspective of our parents' experience and what we could do to better look after ourselves as well as our parents. Joining us today is 24-year-old Jocelyn Chan who has been working in consulting and policy making for multicultural affairs, and she also, very interestingly, runs a book club on mental health for Asian Australians. Hi, everyone. Nice to be here today. I'm Australian-Born Chinese. My parents are from Hong Kong and immigrated around the time when Hong Kong was being handed back to China. We also have Phoebe Mcilwraith, a Bundjalung and Worimi journalist with Chinese heritage, who's been extensively covering mental health for First Nations and queer communities. jingeewallah, everyone. So yes, I'm Phoebe, and my connection to China comes through my Worimi family. So I come from a family called the Ping family, and they were based around Karuah, just north of Newcastle, if people know where that is, in coastal New South Wales. And we descend from a migrant called Yang Ping, who came over in the late 1800s and married into the Worimi family. And ever since then, we've been proud to be ABC or Aboriginal-Born Chinese. And let's start with you, Jocelyn, you have been running a book club about mental health, and you've consulted on mental health services for multicultural communities. When did you realise mental health wasn't just about yourself, but also people around you and even the broader Chinese or Asian communities? Yeah, I grew up in a predominantly white community, and was one of very few Asians at my school, and I felt very out of place, and felt like my parents were very different to everyone else, as you said, as well, like once I started understanding the things that impact our mental health, I became very angry at my parents, and I blamed them a lot for my issues. And obviously a lot of my mental challenges also came from feeling different, so I just didn't know how to embrace my culture and to be proud of who I was. I went on to study Asian Studies at university and learning about Orientalism, it kind of blew my mind. Suddenly, my whole identity made sense. I understood why, you know, I looked up to Western white cultures. What did you blame your parents for? Because I remember blaming my parents for putting leaves in my drinking water, which I got endlessly teased for. I guess it was just how conservative they were, the pressure they put on me. And I appreciate now that my parents tried really hard to. Pass on their cultural values to me, but I think at the time, you know, it was cringe. It was just not. I think there was a lot of pressure, and I didn't really understand where that came from. I didn't understand it came from the immigrant, the context of being an immigrant. Phoebe, I read a piece you wrote last year about being a mixed race, First Nations, Chinese person growing up in regional New South Wales, and one line really struck me where you said you didn't identify yourself as Chinese Australian, but you see your Cantonese heritage have had an impact on your upbringing as well as your views of the world. Can you tell us more about this? Why would you write this line? Where that line really comes from is that growing up in like a western settler colonial country, like Australia, race does play a very strong role in how we do view each other and how we do interact with each other, and especially in regional New South Wales, we can feel that a bit more obtusely right, at least that comes from my lived experience growing up. And I think one, one part of that, for example, is my first ever incidence of racism that I remember doesn't come from being an Aboriginal person. It comes from being of Chinese heritage. And it was because I was going to the local Girl Guides group, which is where you go and you learn how to knit with other girls in your community. And they had asked what I'd done on the weekend. And I said, Oh, I went down to Haymarket, Chinatown, because my mum and my nan were members of the Chinese Women's Association. And then the next week, when I went to Girl Guides, the white girls that used to sit next to me in the circle moved away when I sat down, they said to me, Well, I told my mum that you were Chinese, and she said, to be careful, because you would make me sick. So it was this really distinct idea growing up that even though I don't appear to be Chinese like other people, that this deep xenophobia happens if you just admit and you're proud of to have a Chinese heritage. So I do love my Cantonese heritage. It's brought me amazing food, cultural touch points, language within my family. But I also do have trouble with the Chinese Australian label for myself, because I know that I do move throughout the world with a bit more privilege to not have, you know, the overt anti-Asian or xenophobic like sentiment thrown towards me, but it still has quite an impact in my life, both negative and positive. I try to tread very carefully, but I'm not even sure whether that language is correct or best, like a lot of other mixed race people, we're still trying to figure that out, to be respectful of the privilege we do have, but also acknowledge the impact both positive and negative that our Chinese heritage has in our life. After getting that response, how did you respond to that? I mean, did you sort of hide your Chinese identity a little bit more. Did you embrace your other identities? How did you respond? I remember thinking it was really silly and more upsetting, because I wanted to play hopscotch with my friend at Scouts or Girl Guides. And I remember going home and saying to my parents, why would someone say that? Why would someone do this? And they had to explain racism and distinctly xenophobia to me about the history of anti-Chinese sentiment in Australia and how that would play into the way people might react to me, even though I would have done nothing wrong. And I think where I felt quite lucky belonging to an Aboriginal family is that the intergenerational trauma conversation has been a big conversation Aboriginal communities for a very long time, but also the conversation of having pride in cultural heritage despite discrimination. And so just like my Aboriginal family never hid their Aboriginality through overt discrimination in Australia, I never got encouraged to play down my Chinese heritage just because people had these opinions of me or my community, right? And so where my family encouraged me to go was that you don't need these people in your life. If they're not going to accept your Chinese culture or your Chinese heritage, you don't need them. It would be like if someone didn't accept me for having my Aboriginal heritage, right? And I think that's where I felt very unlucky. I don't think Lucky is the right word, but I felt really just humbled and passionate that I had this beautiful heritage that taught me to have pride in myself, no matter what people thought of me or where I come from. And Jocelyn, just now, you mentioned that you also have those moments where you suddenly understand your parents' experience. Tell us about those moments. How did you realise the things that happened to your parents or your grandparents still have an impact to your parents today? I think one example is last year, I went back to Hong Kong to visit my grandparents. And when I was younger, I'd go to Hong Kong. And, you know, I loved the food and the shopping, and that was kind of how I saw Hong Kong. But I think last year, when I was older, I guess Hong Kong, it's a pretty crazy city, like the amount of buildings there, so it's a bit dystopian to me, and the inequality there is pretty crazy. And seeing one side of my family they lived in. Like a shoe box, basically, and to kind of realise it's a reality that they still live. And you know, even now, with so much happening in China, I've kind of noticed, like with my parents and my friends' parents, they seem to still be grappling with it in different ways. Like I see some parents who don't want to know anything about China. They've come here, and this is their life now, they're culturally, probably being, you know, Chinese, but they don't seem to want to, you know, know that much about China, because it's not - Because of the protests (in 2019)? Yeah, I guess generally, in China, like, you know, with the things happening with the CCP, like, for me, I think there's a lot of history to kind of try and understand, like, everything that's happening. And then there's my dad now, who, I think his way of trying to make sense of it is, he wants to learn, like, as much Chinese history as possible, almost to kind of justify or to understand that, you know, what's happening is, is okay, like, and with the Hong Kong protests happening, I think my mum, yeah, just felt so helpless and yeah, just didn't know how to make sense of it. And her response has kind of been to just shut it out. And, you know, like I'm here now, I don't want to know. I sometimes wonder if they're trying to, like, protect us from it by not not talking about it. We also don't tend to be very political. And do you think that the idea of not being political came from their past living in quite authoritarian states? You know, obviously, culturally in China, it's not possible to question these things. Also, partly, being an immigrant, you kind of just accept that these are the way things are, and that you don't really think that you have a chance to fight against injustices, to be honest. Like, as much as I think everyone should care about politics, I'm starting to realize it can be a privilege to be able to engage that much, and if some people are so busy just trying to survive, like, how do you make space? You know, it is hard to make space. And through accepting these things, how do you think it's affected their mental health? To be honest, I think there's still a long way to go within the Asian community to talk about these things, even with my generation. I think that's why I started the book club when I found this book, it's called Permission To Come Home. So it's from an Asian American context. But yeah, I really think these conversations are really important. But some people, you know, as you get older, I think, and you spend time with family, you know, you might come to understand it, but I definitely don't feel like it's being spoken about enough. Phoebe, do you see any similarities and differences about intergenerational trauma between the First Nations community and the Chinese Australian community? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, I even did a little bit of work. I think something when I was thinking about Yang Ping's journey, it's reflecting on in every generation of our family, we have an oral history, and we reflect on the journeys of our ancestors, and what we can learn and take away from these journeys, but also what we might have to leave behind from them. And I think that's a very interesting discussion I see from my Elders. But when I think about Yang Ping, I think about how migration can mean the loss of so so much. It can mean the loss of family, community, language, when he came over in the late 1800s you don't go back when you migrate from a country, you don't go back to see your parents or your grandparents or the people you grew up with. You're more than likely never going to return to your birthplace or the street you went to to have your favorite meal. And I do think about the amount of migrant journeys that have had to undertake and just cop that loss, and if you don't have the language or the time or even the luxury when you're trying to survive in a new country to process that loss, what does that mean when you're telling these stories to your younger generations? What does it mean when your younger generations have questions about where you come from, but it hurts too much to answer those questions. And the exact same thing happens in the First Nations community as well. We have a very strong tradition of oral history that I think has kept some of that at bay, but also there's a lot of pain, and people don't want to revisit pain, but sometimes those stories are so integral to people understanding why their parents act a certain way, why you don't go to a certain you know, town or suburb, or why you don't talk to one side of the family. And so I think those are some of the similarities I see is that within that migration journey of young ping, there was a lot of loss for him. But also, I think something that we need to start talking about within the First Nations community is the understanding that First Nations people can also be diasporas, even though we're still in Australia. So my bun Bundjalung and Worimi family, they came to South Sydney in a huge Aboriginal migration that happened after World War Two, in which a lot of regional First Nations peoples moved to Sydney in order to find work, because there was just not enough work in the regions. And they also wanted to flee quite a bit of racism that was occurring back home, and there was more economic opportunity in a capital city, and so they had to live in these very multicultural multinational areas where you had a Bundjalung family live next to a Wiradjuri family. They spoke completely different languages. They had different histories and interactions with colonialism before coming to the city, and they had to lose something in that journey as well. And so while I think the conversation might be a bit further in First Nations communities about acknowledging that loss, acknowledging the need to even revisit those stories, even though they're painful, I think that's a conversation I'm just starting to see in migrant communities, and I think it's a beautiful conversation where migrant communities and First Nations communities can learn from each other and also help each other in that conversation and that journey. Phoebe, I know that there are lots of amazing people in the First Nations communities who try to stop this intergenerational trauma from passing down to the younger generations. What kind of approaches have been endorsed by the communities and how do they work? I think a key concept that people can integrate into their own, not just broader communities formally, but also just in their families informally, is the idea of Truth Telling. It sounds really simple, but it's a very popular kind of method and framework for not only First Nations people in Australia, but in North America, and even for different groups that had to undergo colonialism in the continent of Africa. And it's about trying to find ways to unpack history together in a way that's empowering. And so for some people, that's writing a family genealogy, for some people, that's writing articles about the experiences of them growing up or their parents and interviewing community members. But it doesn't have to be that formal. A very popular method in Aboriginal families is what we call 'Walking into the Photo Box'. And so when you go to most Aboriginal households, you'll have just these closets filled with photo albums, and a lot of that is to help tell a record and prompt storytelling when you're together as a family. So every Easter, Christmas, birthdays, sometimes just your Friday Night Dinner, you'll have someone in your family bring out a photo album, and you open and you go through the photos one by one, and it's not structured. You use it as a prompt to see what stories come out of people and what makes people feel compelled to tell you something. And I think that when we think in the context of trauma, if we allow people to let the story emerge from them naturally, especially our Elders, like our parents and our grandparents and their generation, we're going to learn so much more in this relaxed environment with these prompts than sitting down and having an interview, which could feel accusatory, it can feel a bit raw to just try to say to people what happened in your childhood that has stuck with you that you do not want to tell me. But if you sit with people and they go, "oh, here's a photo of someone I grew up with", "oh, this is the street where x happened, and actually, I don't think I've ever told you about that before". This method of investigating together, I think that's something from an Aboriginal family and an Aboriginal community structure that could benefit so many other people. Just bring out your photo albums, bring out even your phones and go, who's this at the family gathering? Who's this at the family lunch? I know you've said I've met her, but I don't think I've actually met her. You said I met this person when I was three. How are we actually related to them? These types of questions and prompts, I think could be a much more comfortable way of truth telling for some, for something that can be really difficult and painful, for some of our Elders. We do talk a lot about the negatives of intergenerational trauma, but in my experience, and what I think you just touched upon, is that it can also bring communities together. It can promote an idea of trying to preserve what they still can and that is all achieved by looking back upon the difficult times in the community's history. How have you seen this dynamic play out, the good and the bad side of intergenerational trauma? Something that I'll bring up, especially as a positive note, is so I talked earlier about the Chinese Women's Association, and that that is a group that both my mother and my maternal grandmother are members of, and the way they were prompted to connect with this organisation was because we have always known that we were Australian-born Chinese. It's something we're very proud of. We come from the Ping family, but my dad was looking through the records, and he found an immigration record that said my ancestor had come in from Japan, and my family were like, No way, no way we're Japanese, especially after we had learned about, you know, the Sino-Japanese war, and we had learned about that ever since we were children, as kind of the history of this area of the world that we come from. And we were like, there's no way we're Japanese. But the way that my family decided to address that was, Well, is there a way that we can prove that we do have this Chinese heritage? And it led to the Chinese Women's Association that do have an arm where they connect with historians that are interested in Chinese Australian history, and they come together once a month or a few times a year to listen to lectures about Chinese Australian history, and to reflect on the policy and the significant events that have affected our community here in Australia. And through my mother and my grandmother becoming members of this organisation, and then I became a member of the organization when I was 18, is that they teamed up with their historians, and they were able to prove that we do have a Chinese heritage. And then they invited my mum and my nan to join. And growing up going to this organisation was high was even though they were reflecting on some really harsh and difficult history, there was a pride in coming together and a pride in love, recognising the diversity of Chinese Australian experience too. And I really saw that in the way so many of the older aunties had taken in my mum and my nan was that they were so excited to have this other aspect of the Chinese Australian experience there. And so to me, that's one example in my own family, lived experience where in reflecting on history and being very public about the fact that you're doing these events about Chinese Australian history is that it attracted new people in to bring us together. And, yeah, I think that's something I do think about a lot, is that in looking at that history together, it actually brought the community together. Okay, the last few years, we've seen quite a few distressing events happening overseas, especially in China, and we've seen many events like the 2019 Hong Kong protests. We've seen the White Paper protests, which even in Australia, was quite notable because a lot of university students were quite afraid for their own safety. Do you think that our mental health services here are adequate in sort of dealing with this? You know, I think of everything that's happening in the world, not just in China, but obviously in Palestine. And, you know, it's hard to imagine how the mental health service can actually support looking into improving accessibility for culturally and linguistically diverse communities accessing mental health services. And (we) were looking into interpreting services, and we found that, as expected, well, interpreting services are essential for the language barrier. It's really not enough. You need cultural understanding and cultural competency. Sometimes I wonder if the you know, the talk therapy is enough to be able to process that level of trauma. And Phoebe, I want to ask you, because you've done so much reporting on mental health, especially on how the First Nations communities are taking services, and you once reported that it's actually quite difficult and challenging for them to seek services that understand their needs. At a time when Australia prides itself as being multicultural, we say that we are going to have multicultural services in our public health. Why is this still happening? The point in the reporting that you're definitely drawing on is from an amazing Aboriginal academic called Professor Corrinne Sullivan. And so she's been researching, like distinctly, the needs of and aspirations of the First Nations queer community. And what she really saw from her reporting that she told to me in a story about queer Aboriginal mental health was that you could either go to a service that was good for the queer community, or you can go to a service that was good for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community, but you could rarely find one that could actually address adequately the needs of both of your identities. It seems like from your perspective, that happens to so many other communities as well, where it's like you're almost having to pick one or the other, which part of me needs more help and support right now, and we see that coming out in research and lived experience, reporting and writing. We are a very multicultural and multilingual country, but it really appears that we're not reflecting that in our services, and they're just not catching up to the needs and the diversity that are in the community that they're serving. Where I've even had to go in my own mental health journey, I went to therapy for the first time last year. I know, woohoo, right? I ended up just having to go to a therapist that came from an ethnic background, because what I was finding is that if I went to a therapist that came from a similar culture, similar cultural background to me, they might reinforce the own biases we have in our culture, but if I went to someone that was white Australian, they wouldn't quite understand the needs to be connected to community or have these like different and specific, nuanced relationships with your parents and Elders, where I found a happy middle was finding a therapist that did just come from an ethnic background themselves, and so they didn't reinforce or reflect the bias or the assumptions of my culture back to me, but they could still slightly understand and have the foundation to empathise with where I was coming from, but that still required quite a bit of labour of me explaining things. But because I grew up in a multicultural family and a multicultural community, I kind of understood what it was like to try to communicate across different cultural barriers and try to find language that might be shared between different people. We've talked about this lightly already, but I do want to touch upon how differently our parents really reflected upon the ideas of mental health. For example, my dad, I can only think about what he was going through. He was working seven days a week to support his little new family, but he was all sending money back. There was so much pressure on him, and even as a kid, I could see that he was really struggling, and nobody in the family would just talk to him. And even today, if I think, if I brought up the idea that he should get therapy, he would just laugh at me. Could I ask both of you, how do we begin a conversation about mental health with our parents, who come from very different backgrounds? It's something that I've been thinking about for the last couple of years. How do you change someone's mind? And you know, you have researchers who literally dedicate their whole entire careers to this question, but the way I've been thinking about it recently is the practice of radical empathy, that even if someone believes something that's completely opposite to the feeling I hold in my heart to still not close off that journey. And I mean that comes back to some of the lessons that my grandmother gave me as a kid, but I've had to really bring that into adulthood, is to always keep an open door, and rather than being in combative arguments with people or debates with people, it's to model what I think is the right way to go forward, and if other People can see that the way I'm doing things is leading to a positive outcome, then maybe they'll eventually come around, because they're seeing that the proof is in the pudding. So for example, with therapy, I know it's been a huge journey I've had to undergo, particularly my father. So my father is a white Australian, but he grew up as a working class boy in South Sydney. When he went to high school, he went to a really prestigious selective school, and his family had to pull in money to buy him one uniform. And on his first day at school, the richer boys at school went around with scissors, and they would find the poor kids and cut their tie, because then, technically they were out of uniform, but they would have to struggle because their family didn't have enough money to buy another tie, and so on his first day at school, he had to get into a fight with these kids because they wanted to single out poor, working-class children. And that's just a taste of his life. Oh, my God, when we think about Dad law, he tells me another story every single year, and I'm like, Where have you been? I don't even know my own father, but he loves us very much. But when it comes to therapy, his whole idea was that you can just choose happiness, and why would you make life harder for yourself? I think that's a huge trend with all these people that have had to work through their own trauma and their own challenges, is when they want to create this better life for their children, and when they see us still being upset, they're like, No, but I've done the I've done the other thing I've been working all my life. I've been taking this extra step. Why is there still this unhappiness? I think there's almost a grief in them too, that they've done all this work, but that there's still work to be done. And so for him, instead of having these debates with him, like I tried to for years, I just started going to therapy. I just found a GP that was really supportive and lovely who encouraged me to go to therapy. And then when I went back home, he's like, you're so much happier. Why are you happier? Like, what has happened here? But when I said to him, like, I'm going to therapy every three weeks, that's probably the best decision I've ever made for my life. He's now encouraging me to go back. I've, you know, I got to a really good point. I haven't gone for 12 months. I'm starting to get stressed at work again, and on my last call with him, he said, 'why don't you go back to your therapist', which is a huge step for my father. And so I think for me, it's this radical empathy to the lives they lived, and hope that by demonstrating proudly to the people around me why I'm doing certain things, that they can start to see the results for themselves and maybe come around to a different idea too. What do you see next for our community to encourage just more people to be involved with this process? I think growing awareness is really important. Like starting these conversations, as I said, I am seeing a change within my generation, and I think, as I said, it takes time and having the privilege to have these spaces, to have these conversations, I think politically, as well as we've talked a lot about how important is to understand our histories, to understand why, you know, we have these experiences that impact our mental health. So learning more about Asian Australian history and promoting that is really important. Go to your GP and get your free mental health plan. Those 10 sessions changed my life. And you know, it did take me a long time to find a therapist that wasn't right for me, that wasn't right for the money I had at the time, but what I've gained from those sessions with that therapist will carry with me for the rest of my life. I think when we belong to such deeply communal cultures, we want the validation of each other, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's really lovely that we do care about the opinions of others. It makes us more conscientious about the impact that we have on the people around us, but sometimes. It can pull us back, and we need to know where our happy medium is, and just build these structures within yourself so you can model what you think is the way forward for yourself, your health, your wellbeing, and it might just inspire the people around you to do that for themselves. Yeah, with the community thing, I think my book club, that's a way to start having these conversations, and it doesn't always have to be explicitly therapy that can be beneficial for mental health, for example, finding Asian Australian spaces like, I know, like music, for example, might be one. I know there's a really big Asian Australian RAVE culture, I think that's a very big outlet that I think has some ties to a lot of our traumas. Doesn't always have to be specifically mental health. But finding these communal spaces. Phoebe and Jocelyn, it's been great having both of you on. if you or someone you know needs crisis support, contact Lifeline on 13, 11 14, the suicide callback service on 1300 659, 467, or Kids Helpline on 1800 5518 100. You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang, produced by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, with support from Joel Supple, Max Gosford and Bernie Nguyen. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Follow Chinese-ish on your favourite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS audio app.
SBS Australia
25-06-2025
- Entertainment
- SBS Australia
After Marriage Equality: Growing Up Queer with Chinese Parents
To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us... it's already progressive for my parents. Victor Wu Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh Producer: Bertin Huynh, WIng Kuang, Dennis Fang Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Soliman Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Cammaraygal people and Wurundjeri people. We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Wing Kuang Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing. I'm a former Chinese international student, Bertin Huynh and I'm Bertin, a Vietnamese Chinese Australian. So Wing, I wanted to ask you, what does it mean to be a good Chinese child, especially a good son? Wing Kuang Oh, I don't think this is determined by me, but by our parents. For a long time, I think it's been the consensus that you need to be obedient and follow their wishes in order to be the good child, and especially if you're talking about son. Well, sons are very important in Confucius culture, you are supposed to do everything for your family. Bertin Huynh What if a fundamental part of who you are goes against that, like against their wishes? Wing Kuang What do you mean by that? Bertin Huynh Well, I'm gay, and let's face it, our Chinese parents are often more conservative than their western counterparts. In fact, my dad doesn't accept my sexuality as a gay man. Wing Kuang Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that Bertin. But I also really appreciate that you are willing to open up in this podcast about your identity, and in fact, I think a lot of reports have shown that many people in our community who identify themselves as LGBT+ group might share similar experiences as you. So in this episode, we are going to ask the very question: how can we be filial children, but also be our authentic selves? Joining us is Lucy Xu, who is a writer and recent graduate of the University of Melbourne. Lucy Xu Hi, I'm Lucy. I use the label queer, and I go by she/her pronouns. Bertin Huynh And we have Victor Wu, who's a Hong Kong Australian filmmaker. Victor Wu Hi, I identify as gay and queer, and my pronouns are he/they. Wing Kuang So I want to start at the beginning. Tell me Victor and Lucy, what's your coming out story? And did being Chinese complicate this process? Victor Wu I did not really have a really traditional, or what people would think of a very stereotypical Chinese upbringing. When we were in Hong Kong, my mum worked for the education department, so she had a little bit of more of a progressive mindset. And also, I would say that I'm not neurotypical, so a lot of the social pressures that other people feel I don't necessarily feel. I don't feel the same pressure from my parents or from the families as others might. So I was aware, like growing up, that we were the only sons to our grandparents on our father's side, and they were always talking about how they never had any male grandchildren. And then we came along really late. Wing Kuang Can you bring us back to the day when you tell your mom that, 'hey, I'm actually gay'? Victor Wu In my family growing up, face to face discussions or conversations aren't necessarily that productive. I don't feel like people listen to each other. I'm sure a lot of Chinese people will identify with this. There's a lot of fighting, and I don't think people understand each other any more, as you continue to argue. So a lot of the more serious conversations were actually conducted through written letters between family members, so that you could save your peace and have your train of thought and put your perspective forward and your argument forward in its entirety, without being interrupted. I wrote a handwritten letter to my parents and just kind of spelled out exactly how I felt, what my position was, which was that I'm not asking for approval, I'm not asking for acceptance. This is who I am. Like their decision, yes, is whether they accept it, but their decision affects whether they have a place in my life. Bertin Huynh I find it mad that you wrote a letter because my family's exactly the same. Any tiny thing will turn into a huge argument, and you're yelling and you're crying. And I actually also wrote a letter as well in Mandarin. Just like, there was no miscommunication at all, because I'm, like, if I write it in the language that you think in, and if you misunderstand, it's your fault. Like, it's not my fault. It's not I'm the one of the problem here. But you know, Lucy, you're laughing now as well. Is that kind of something? You know, your experience of coming out? Was it similar? Wing Kuang Did you also write a letter? Lucy Xu I've definitely written letters, just not about coming out. I feel like my experience was similar, but also the complete opposite in so many ways. I grew up in a very, very traditional family. My dad was a Chinese medicine doctor, my mom was an accountant, and they moved here when they were in their early 20s. They had very different, I guess, strict ideas about what they wanted for me in my life, and also, I have an older brother, both of us went through so much pressure. So for me, I left home as soon as I graduated high school and moved out. Was fully financially independent. My mum and I were actually no contact for a while, because I knew that she wouldn't be accepting of my sexuality, and I never got to come out to my dad, because he passed away when I was 13. It was only really after about a year of no contact with my mom, where both of us decided it was time that we should come back together. We did some therapy together, and it was actually through therapy, in one of our sessions that I came out to her. Victor Wu Well, props to her for agreeing to go to therapy, because I know my mom would never agree. Bertin Huynh Wing Kuang If you don't mind, Lucy, would you be able to paint us a picture about what the therapy is like? Lucy Xu I think it was a very unique situation that my mum and I were in. I'm so lucky that she was even open minded enough to want to try therapy with me. I think that it was partially to do with the fact that my dad had passed away earlier on, so she was already processing a lot of grief through therapy, just with someone else. I had a therapist who spoke Mandarin and English, so he was actually like a translator for the two of us, because I'm sure that you guys can all understand what it's like moving between different languages with family and never really being fully fluent in either with each other. Victor Wu But especially with queer issues like, it's so difficult to articulate. Lucy Xu Yeah, I was so lucky. My therapist was a gay man who was Malaysian Australian, so, yeah, he really understood, like, all of the different, I guess, like, perspectives. Victor Wu Did you find him, like, through your queer networks? Victor Wu No, I actually just googled "gay Asian therapist". Bertin Huynh I feel like it sounds like that whole inability to have the right vocation to talk about queer issues with our parents is an issue that stops us from helping them understand us. Do you feel that? Lucy Xu Bertin Huynh I feel like, in queer stories, this is a recurring narrative, especially in western queer stories, where we just cut parents off and we decide that, you know, our family's toxic, so no more family. But I feel like as people from a minority community, family is such a cornerstone of what makes us us. So I don't feel like cutting parents out or cutting family members out is as simple as it is for non-Chinese Australians or non-Chinese people in Australia. You know, why isn't it as simple for us? Victor Wu I think what makes it hard for us, to be kind of honest, is that there's more at stake. Often, it's easy to tell someone where there's nothing at stake, right? Like, white people would never understand why it's difficult to move out, right? Because for them, like their parents want them to move out, and like they would help them move out. Bertin Huynh Well, Lucy, you went no contact for two years? Lucy Xu Bertin Huynh A little over a year. Was that painful to do? Lucy Xu Oh my gosh, it was the most painful thing of my life. I can't imagine ever going through that again. Yeah, thinking about that question of why, I guess Asian Australians find it so much more difficult to cut off family, at least for me, I'm not as close with my extended family, who all live in China. And so for me, the only real family that I have right now in Australia is my mum. And so there's so much more at stake. In many ways, it kind of feels like, if I don't have my mom in my life, then it's kind of like I'm just floating around. And I think also being Asian Australian, growing up in Australia, especially surrounded by a lot more, like majority white communities, you kind of feel like you exist in this third space where you are Australian, but you're not really, and you are Chinese, but you're also not really. And so it feels like when you lose something, it's so much more impactful, because you already didn't have, maybe as much as someone else who was white growing up in Australia. Wing Kuang There's something that both of you have mentioned that really struck me, like Victor, you mentioned that you are the youngest son of the family, while Lucy, you said you are like the daughter for your mother. I just wonder, because LGBT plus is not just about sexuality, it's also about your understanding about your gender identity and also the relationship. But our own family relationship is so sex bias or gender bias in this way, like you talk about you being the youngest son, and you talk about being the daughter to your mother. How do you find that and how does that create this extra layer for you to explain to your parents and come out? Victor Wu My situation is actually really interesting... Wing Kuang Because your family has two sons, you don't need to be the one that bear the child. Victor Wu Firstly, there's that. But also what's really weird or interesting is that my mum always wanted a daughter, and she thought I was going to be a daughter, and she kind of almost treated me like a daughter. But it's kind of like a gay son and a mother bond as well. That's quite common. Bertin Huynh Well, they say gay sons are the best daughters. Victor Wu Exactly. So I did kind of have that relationship with her. And even growing up like, I think when I was born, people go, Oh, that's a beautiful baby girl, and she would be really happy, because she thinks she said that my face was like, fine when I was born was fine, and more like girls, and people would think I was a girl, and she would be really happy so and I've got lots of pink things, for some reason. Lucy Xu My mum compared to, I would say, her peers and her friends, she's also definitely more open minded, especially with my dad passing away. I think that changed a lot of her ideas about life. But certainly I think she does have quite traditional expectations for me. You know, growing up, she took me to ballet class, and I was always like her little baby, her beautiful daughter. I remember getting my ears pierced at 18, and she was crying because she's like, no, you have holes in you, like you're not perfect. And it's so funny because, like, if you look at me now, I have bleached brows. I'm probably just like everything that isn't a stereotypical Asian daughter image. But I think as my mum has grown with me, her ideas of what it means to be a good child and a good daughter has changed, and overall, I think she cares more about the values that I have inside me, and I respect her so much I have so much love and just, yeah, I worship her. She's just the most amazing person in my life. Wing Kuang Do either of you feel like you owe something to your parents? Because as a heterosexual, I have always felt that this is how my parents tried to pressure me when I was a kid. Bertin Huynh Even though my dad doesn't accept who I am and probably will never accept where he likes. We will go to family functions. I will go with my fiance to family functions, and he'll pretend both of us don't exist, but at the same time, like I do feel like I owe him a lot, like he was a refugee came to Australia with the clothes on his back and the passport in his hand, and has managed to kind of raise two children on his own. He's a single father as well, despite all the unpleasantness of coming out, and here's the homophobia, I can't hate him for it, because I feel like I owe him something. So that's what I feel like. Why we want to ask this question, Victor Wu To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us, like, it's already progressive for my parents. One example is that when we first came to Australia, we went to an evangelical Christian church that my dad's old childhood friend who had been living in Australia for a little while, went to because we just wanted to find community and friends, right? And then we stopped going. It was because my mom came back one day, like from church, and she was talking about how vicious the people were about gay people, and how cruel they were, and and then, which is progressive, right? And then she follows up by saying that, you know, gay people are just mentally ill. They just need to be treated like it's, on one hand, progressive, but then on the other hand, still homophobic, right? So it's quite a lot of conflict, because they will have what can be considered homophobic views. But I won't ever say that they're homophobic people. Bertin Huynh And Lucy, what about you? Lucy Xu I'm so sorry that you're experiencing that conflicted relationship with your parents, but I also, sadly, fully relate to how you feel. Yeah, it's always this tension. I think I definitely still feel that I owe a lot to my mum. I've said it so many times already, but, yeah, I have so much respect and love towards her. But it's also so funny, because I think that, because I'm a daughter, some of her expectations of me, I've fully exceeded, and others, maybe not so much like when it comes to my sexuality, I think it's always going to be complicated with her. I also agree. I don't think that I would say that she's homophobic, but she certainly understands the issue in a different way. I think she always will, but I also have kind of come to peace with that, because I know that she'll be there for me when I really need her, and I'll always be there for her when she needs me the most. And I think overall, that's what's more important to me. Wing Kuang I want to ask a question about visibility, because I'm coming from a really privileged position for this in this episode, because I'm heterosexual, and my parents wouldn't have to think that, okay, if I was gay, someday I will I'm un-gay But I do have lots of gay friends, and I also find it really difficult to educate my parents that, look my friends are gay and it's their right to pursue who they love. My mom will always come back and say, yeah, maybe when he turns 30, he will become straight again. But a couple of years ago, I found a turning point. One of my cousin's friends who's quite close to my mom, came out as a lesbian and entered a really stable, long term relationship with her girlfriend. She was really happy. And my mom watched how that relationship flourished, and somehow it helped her understand, oh yeah, being LGBT, being lesbian is actually not bad. Like she even asked me, are you really sure that you are straight? Like, maybe finding a girlfriend will be much better than finding a boyfriend. But I spot the difference. It's because she saw someone who is a lesbian and she found out, oh, there's no difference, and they can live a way much better, yeah, maybe much better life. Victor Wu They don't have to serve a man. Wing Kuang And it just makes me think, like it makes me think into your stories, that your parents feel it's very difficult to accept your sexuality. Do you think that, though, if they see that you are very happy, you are having a great time with your partner, despite you having the sexuality that he disagrees with, they will actually go and accept that, because at the end of the day, they love you? Victor Wu That really resonates with me. It's 100% what I feel. In fact, that's like the main message of my film is that it's the ordinary, everyday visibility, seeing people in our own communities, not seeing something in the media, seeing some people in our schools, our workmates, not something presented in the media that's going to change their minds. And ANTRA, an advocacy and support group for queer Chinese people in Australia and New Zealand, one of their main projects is just to connect parents who have just discovered or that the kids have newly informed them of their gay or queer identity, to connect them with other parents who have already gone through that journey and accept the kids and to see all these other wonderful queer kids who are, you know, successful people, healthy people you know. And that's like their main goal. Lucy Xu I think, also by bringing your community and your lived experience in to your relationship with your family in those little everyday moments, it slowly, like, changes the way that they see just the topic of sexuality in general differently. Like for me, almost all of my friends are queer, and I'll just get my mum to meet them when we're hanging out. I'll name drop them all the time, tell them just casual things, like, oh, so and so got a boyfriend, I'm so happy for them, and I think it's just those day to day interactions that you have with your communities that really changes the way that they view topics that might come across as scary or painted differently in the media. Victor Wu I think part of the problem is because the narratives in the media and storytelling are still so much around pain and tragedy and loss, right? And it's because we don't have these positive stories that queerness equates to sadness and death and tragedy and pain. Bertin Huynh How do you feel about that? And how do you know what you're trying to achieve if you know your film as well? Victor Wu Yeah, the film is called Freely Flourish 綻放, which means to blossom in Chinese. It's set in the marriage equality debate. The inspiration for the film was not actually that, even though that was where it came from, the inspiration was actually seeing hopeful narratives, because during the pandemic. I wanted to watch something that was light hearted and that could lift me from that, you know, the darkness of a) the aftermath of the marriage equality debate, which had such a destructive impact, you know, in our communities and for trans people, like the most vulnerable people, trans community, school age kids, queer young people. Wing Kuang And since we've been talking about media, I want to mention this classic Chinese film in 1983 and I think you both know which one I'm talking about, Ang Lee's the Wedding banquet, the classic of the classic, which is also having a remake in 2025 under the same name, also talking about how gay couples try to hide the fact that they are gay and they get married to the Asian parents, because we're saying, yes, the issue is still ongoing. But it also gets slightly different from your perspective. Do you see that nowadays, in 2025 the thing that we deal with, its core is still the same, but maybe its surface is becoming different, because at the end of the day, the society is making progress? Victor Wu It's really dealing with the issues that our gay queer community deals with. Like in the past, it may have been dealing with your parents and their homophobia, but nowadays, because they see that legal changes, you know, especially in western communities, are here. I think the moral compunction is not as present, even though some of you yourself have described there's still a fundamental unacceptance or homophobia, but I think largely that's not as present, and it's kind of actually a parent dealing with how will the community think of us? That's the main tension point. Lucy Xu It's kind of the perspective has changed now more onto a wider lens and how sexuality is seen on a wider spectrum, not just from immediate family. I haven't been able to see my extended family in China since before COVID, so it's very long overdue. I remember telling her, Oh, you know, mom, like, I'm so scared, you know, I feel like I've changed so much since then. I'm so worried that our family's gonna judge me, especially because now I look more outwardly queer as well. And she was like, Lucy, they're always gonna judge you. Victor Wu That's a really mature and a really kind of profound perspective that your mum is. Lucy Xu I think that's so true, though, and I think it carries out into every single situation with family. So I'm taking that forward now. Is my advice always gonna judge you. You just have to be at peace with yourself and keep going along. Wing Kuang We talk about aspiring queer Chinese Australian leaders in the community. For example, we have William Yang, like the great photographer, photographing the Mardi Gras like in the 1970s, 1980s and we also have Penny Wong, the foreign minister, who got married last year. They are all about 40. For young queer Chinese Australians, what kind of leader or what kind of figures you want to see support the community, for example? Lucy Xu I think there are already some really great role models that exist for queer Asian Australians, or just queer marginalized younger people. I think that the power of social media has really brought that to the front. Victor Wu Firstly, I just want to mention that in Sydney, there's this really amazing collective called queer worship, and it's founded by queer Asian people. And I think the perspective that might be missing is like they may not be visible to the mainstream, but they're definitely there for our community. It's like we only realize their significance, like in hindsight. There's already a kind of people doing amazing things and leading the community, creating community, but we're not going to really learn about them as household names till much later. Lucy Xu Yeah. Speaking on this made me think of a lot of grassroots community run organisations and collectives that are doing some amazing things to bring the community together. Off the top of my head, there's some amazing magazines, like Liminal magazine. I think of HOISZN, which I think is run in Melbourne. I think even, like event collectives, they do a lot of work in Melbourne as well. There's just so many amazing community run organizations that are happening. But yeah, like you were saying, it's just they're not being platformed in the same way because they haven't been out in the world for as long. Victor Wu For young people, mainstream media is dead. Bertin Huynh Victor Wu Yes, you're never going to see these people on TV, quite frankly, because it's all social media and like, we were both saying it's all grassroots. So they're not going to be, I don't think they're going to be famous, like we understand in the older generation, or even my generation, it's going to be quite different. Bertin Huynh Let's wrap things up. So in a single sentence, Lucy, why don't you start? How can we be good Chinese children and our authentic selves? Lucy Xu Lead with love and compassion, and expect that of your family as well. Victor Wu Yeah, I think it's going deeper, not about kind of the superficial things of what your parents or your community expect, but it's like a deeper understanding of their fundamental hopes for our community, for us, which is to sort of thrive and flourish. And part of that is really allowing ourselves to discover who we are and showing our families, the people closest to us, who we are and the joy that we have in that. Wing Kuang Thank you so much for joining the show. Victor Wu So glad you guys invited us. Lucy Xu Yeah, genuinely, thank you so much. This is honestly such an amazing platform. Bertin Huynh You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and me, Bertin Huynh, produced by myself, Dennis Fang and with support from Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Solomon. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favourite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.
SBS Australia
28-05-2025
- General
- SBS Australia
Sex-ish: The talk our parents never gave us
There is some expectation that sex should always be good... but I think there are seasons - there are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's cold. — Ronald Hoang, Relationship and Family Therapist Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. Bertin Huynh And I'm Bertin. I'm a second-generation Vietnamese Chinese Australian. Wing Kuang I'm going to bring you to an awkward chat in this episode. Bertin Huynh Really, should I be nervous? Should I be scared? Wing Kuang Yeah, because this is something that our community isn't very good at talking about it. Bertin Huynh Oh, I think I have a good idea of what you mean. Wing Kuang We are going to talk about sex and dating too. Bertin Huynh But before we get any deeper into this episode, just a bit of a content warning that this episode may contain some graphic detail. You know, this is something I never spoke to my parents about. But this week, we have two experts to help us make this conversation just a little bit easier. Wing Kuang We have Hailey Lin, who is a psychosexual therapist, originally from Hong Kong, here with us. Welcome to Chinese-ish, Hailey. Hailey Lin Hello. Thank you for having me. Bertin Huynh And I have Ronald Hoang. He's a relationship and family Ronald. Ronald Hoang Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Bertin Huynh Hailey, starting with you. Could you just tell us really quickly exactly what you do in your job? What does a psychosexual therapist do? Hailey Lin So things like sexual dysfunctioning or something like gender identity issues or porn addiction, relationship difficulties, all of that. Wing Kuang And what's your job about, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Yeah, my focus is specialised in relationships, so things like communication and connection and working through any issues amongst couples. But of course, sex also naturally comes into the equation too. Wing Kuang Since we are all of Chinese heritage, it's so universally acknowledged that Chinese parents will only want us to be doctors or lawyers or engineers. And now one of you are sex therapist and one of you are offering consultation on relationships and dating and love. What's your family reaction about your career choice in the first dance? Hailey Lin I think my mom is pretty open minded, because I have, like, this long journey. I was a beginning social worker. I work in the sexual health field, so she's kind of like, okay, you're a social worker, but you just are working with, like, some, like, sexual health issues. So she finds that's okay, because you're just helping people. And then later I told her, like, Okay, I decided to study sexology and become sex therapist. I should go, Okay, if this is what you like, go, go for it. Wing Kuang Oh, you have a really cool mom. And how about you, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Oh my mom. I'm pretty sure she still doesn't know what I do. The way she describes it is, I work with crazy people, so she doesn't fully grasp what I do, but she's accepting. I guess you could say, I mean, in my extended family, they really wanted us to be like a doctor or lawyer or a pharmacist, and all of my cousins are pharmacists, actually. But I chose to take a different pathway so to begin with, it was confusing for her, but I think she understands it a little bit better nowadays. Bertin Huynh I think that crazy word is quite stereotypical of our community, right? We don't really understand and we don't really talk about our feelings and our relationships. Does that kind of come into play, especially when you have patients that are of Chinese descent? Ronald Hoang Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that is an aspect of Asian relationships where there is either very indirect communication, where they don't really speak about their needs, or don't really speak about certain topics. They're too sensitive about certain things, or sometimes the communication can be extremely direct, like too direct, using guilt and shame to have their needs met. But of course, that does damage to a relationship. Wing Kuang I was also just wondering, because you were mentioning that your mom was still very confused about your job. Is that also just because, like, this idea of reviewing your sex life, your relationship life, to the external third party, is not really a thing in a Chinese family. Hailey Lin Yeah, even I say like, my mom was open minded and supportive to my decision, but she doesn't talk to my relatives or her friends about what I do. So they would just tell them, oh, she was a social worker now doing psychotherapy things like that. So still, like, she can be like, open minded, but also she can be like, very conservative about that, because it is not the norm in our Asian culture, like talking about sex or intimacy or those, like, kind of. Like, pirate stuff. Bertin Huynh and then, like, on the back of that, then do members of your family or friends? Do they come to you because you have that qualification when they have issues? Or is that something that you do that's the line that you don't cross? Oh, Hailey Lin People will come to me. Yeah, of course. They will come to me. And sometimes they will say, oh, okay, I really need help, and stuff like that. So when I was, like, much younger. When I just graduated, I just try to be a good person. Like to be a savior. Okay, I will talk to you about this, but later, I've learned that, okay, I should be ready to set my boundary. Ronald Hoang I wouldn't say, when I talk with my friends that I provide them with therapy, though, that I would just be providing them with my insight or opinion, and it would be a lot more direct, you know, I would tell them my thoughts, whereas working with a client may not be the same. Wing Kuang Do you get a lot of Chinese patients who come to you because they were like, oh, this is an Asian therapist, or this isn't a Chinese therapist, so they will understand what I'm talking about. Hailey Lin Yes, like I do, I do get it because I am talking about sex in that vocabulary, it can be like an alien or foreign language when you speak about your genital past or even your intimacy. So they find it very difficult to open up to, let's say Aussie or a local therapist, because of the different cultural background they feel, oh, this is very difficult to tell them, like what they truly think, or what the real struggle is. They just couldn't have that understanding towards them. But there's not a lot of options for like, Chinese sex therapists. I think that's just two or three in particular. Ronald Hoang I used to work in an organisation, actually, and I would get a lot less Asian clients, but working in private practice, I noticed that I do get a lot more Asian clients who specifically come to me because they feel and they even directly say this to me because they feel that I would get them a bit better. And so they do open up, and they do come because they feel like I can relate to their culture. Wing Kuang Without revealing any details or privacy of your clients, what's the most asked question you have got from the Chinese community? Hailey Lin Just a hard one. So I feel like, because I am Asian, we don't have this therapy culture. So when they do come to us, they're just expecting, like, something like seeing a GP, like, Okay, how many sessions? Tell me, can I get a cure, or can I get a prescription? Tell me, like, how many sessions? Like, how many calls do I have to pay you to get the result? Ronald Hoang For me, I think one theme is the theme between choosing partner loyalty and family loyalty and juggling that dynamic. You know, do I meet my family's needs versus my partner's needs, which might not meet my family's needs, and that can create, as you can imagine, some tension there. There's also often, I notice, because a lot of us are migrants and come from various places that there is intergenerational trauma that's probably a little bit more frequent than other different kinds of backgrounds. Wing Kuang So we've gathered some questions from our young Chinese Australian community. Bertin, would you like to share the first one? Bertin Huynh Okay, so the first one's very, very simple. Neville asks: why is it so hard to find the right one? Ronald Hoang I think that in modern day society, especially with the introduction of dating apps, what I feel has happened is dating has been like a commodified game. It's become a thing where people are the objects in a game. And because of dating apps, there is an abundance of choice which creates the paradox of choice, which is basically a psychological effect. The more choices we have, the sadder or more upset we are with the choice that we make. And so because of this, we've become more choosy in our relationship. So we have a list of ticking boxes that we feel like we're trying to find in our partner, and it makes us more and more choosy and makes us less and less committed to a single person, because comparison is the thief of happiness. Bertin Huynh So from my perspective, as a sex therapist, I would say there's a because I know nowadays the models of society, it has a lot of like, different format of relationship, like we talk about, like, friends with benefit. We talk about open relationships, or even, like, ENM, like ethical non-monogamy. So that's a lot of format about relationships, and you have to find the right one. It could be, like, very difficult, yeah, because you have to, like, meet people who share very similar values. So it can make this very tough. Wing Kuang And this one is from Lisa, so I thought naturally you'd feel more sexually aroused when you are at your most fertile period of your cycle. But I felt like I was the opposite. Is this normal? Hailey Lin I feel like the sexual desire is case by case, like every person, like every person is different. So Some people, they feel like having, like, more sexual desire, because of the hormone, like when the ovulation happens and when you have your menstrual child cycle, because all the body hormones are fluctuating. So that's why you feel this urge to do something. We are all Chinese, but we have, like, different body quality or whatever, or different personality. And that's like, No. Wing Kuang And is it true that if you are having sex with your true love, the sex is much better? Hailey Lin Yes, yes. Because there are two aspects. One is very physical. It's more about the reflexogenic. And another part with sex is psychogenic, so it's more psychological, more emotional, and more about that, this deep connection, so you can actually have sex or make love. So I would say making love is like, like, more like a mindful feeling. Ronald Hoang I do also think that there is some expectation that sex should always be good, especially with your partner. And I think that's a myth, that's a very destructive myth that we can hold if we're rigidly holding to this idea that sex should always be amazing and passionate, but I think there are seasons, you know. There are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's, you know, cold, and then, you know, and then there are other times when it's, you know, spring or autumn, when it's kind of lukewarm. Wing Kuang You said something that really struck me, Ronald, about like, sex even with your partner, is not always good, because my idea about romance and also sex pretty much come from all the trash fictions online, especially when I was still studying in China during my high school, like there were just so many, like, random fan fiction like nowadays, like looking back, you will feel that it's not biologically correct, like in the way how they describe all the sex scene, but this idea of having sex with someone you like is always good, has just been in my mind so long. So when I actually had my first sexual experience, it was actually really painful. What's more painful for me later is I didn't know where I could learn about this pain, so I actually just googled it. Now, looking back as a 28-year-old self-claimed independent woman, I was really surprised that even though I came to study abroad, sex is still such a big shame for me to talk about it, or even to just, like, Google it, like, I remember when I was Googling, I was like, oh my god, I would never, ever expect that I would do this one day. Is that something that's common to you when you are talking to your Chinese clients? Hailey Lin Yeah, I think that's very common. And I think like, like, across, not just Chinese, across the old Asian cultures, that's a, like, a huge gap in the school sex education. They just talk about biological stuff, but they don't tell you, Hey, how to give consent to help your first sexual experience. Or they don't talk about pleasure. They just talk about abstinence. Like, don't do this, don't fall in, like, pregnancy, protect yourself, use condom, just all about that. But sex is something that we need to learn. We need to build up, a skill we need to practice, but that no one tells us, and our family, our parents won't do, and our friends maybe they don't have, like, a lot of experience there as well. Wing Kuang Is that, like a common feeling you have to counter with your clients as well? Ronald Hoang Yeah, I think it is. Like shame is a weapon that's often used, I think, in Asian culture and when we feel shame, shame is a feeling that we get when we're kind of telling ourselves that we are a bad person. And the following action tendency of shame is to hide, to withdraw because you're such a bad person that you don't want other people to kind of be around you and see you for the badness that you are. So I actually appreciate you actually sharing that story, because you're actually breaking that and you're doing something different, and that's the healing. Wing Kuang Bertin Huynh That actually kind of reminds me of my experience. I'm a gay man, so having not even come out of the closet? Yeah, I didn't even have friends to talk to. And, you know, parents are definitely off limits there. And then I guess the one thing you turn to is the only kind of representation of sex or gay sex that you have, which is pornography. So that really leads me to this next question from Doris. She was wondering if people who consume lots of pornography, lots of content like that, does that affect their perception of enjoyment of real people? Hailey Lin Absolutely. Because, like people usually the major source of what their sex education is actually through pornography and because, in porn, like, they don't talk about consent, like they wouldn't speak about, hey, do you want to have sex with me? Yes or no, they don't teach you something like that. Ronald Hoang Porn is entertainment, not educational. It's just purely entertainment. It's edited, scripted, and is not a representation of real, committed sex and relationship. Hailey Lin Nowadays, a lot of people really notice, like, this huge issue with a pornography. So nowadays we do have, like, something called ethical porn, so like, then we can learn more education. Should know, like how to masturbate or how to help like intercourse, but I think that is a better trend that can literally, like, change the world a little bit. Bertin Huynh The next one is a voice note that was sent in. It's from Amy, Amy Hi, I'm Amy. Are we seeing a growing trend in certain relationship types in the Chinese Australian community, such as open relationships or polyamory? And what are the factors influencing such trends? And if so, how? Do Chinese cultural values tend to inhibit this individual's pursuit of these relationship types polyamory, for example, how likely or how challenging is such an arrangement to work feeling? Hailey Lin That's also a misconception, like, okay, only Asian or Chinese people find it challenging. But the fact is, even for Western people, they still find it challenging too, because it is against mainstream culture. It's not about like, okay, open your relationship, and then I can have a sex with other people . Oh, that's amazing. But it's not like that. It's just a lot of power dynamics, a lot of relationships, like agreement, or even, like the contract between two of you. Wing Kuang I actually find both of you share a very strong common point, like when you both talk about sex and dating professionally, in answering these questions, you often mention a phrase, this is actually not exclusive to the Asian community. Why do you feel that this is not excluded to the Asian community? Hailey Lin Yeah people think like certain cultures, Chinese culture means that you're conservative, or even like you feel sexist taboo. But sometimes, like even some like Chinese client, they come to me like they can be in an open relationship, or they can be, like, doing sex work or whatever. So I don't want people to have this, like, assumption, pre assumption, or a stereotype about, like, okay, Chinese people should act like that. Ronald Hoang Yeah, and I think it's our line of work. So the Asian couples, or Asian people will come to us and talk about these things, but it's actually extremely normal, like so many Asian couples and all these couples, they're struggling with the same thing. It's just perhaps this taboo that it's something that we can't talk about with our friends or out in the community. It's something that we shouldn't touch. That's probably the perception that it's maybe giving other people who don't work in mental health. Wing Kuang Earlier you were talking that actually, Chinese people are not that conservative because they actually will turn to you for professional help, but it's just always these stereotypes. Even one of our friends, when they are typing this question like, they start with like, yeah, "compared to Australian culture, Chinese culture seems to be, indeed, a bit more conservative". How do you find that being in these intersected environments affected our views on sex and dating? Hailey Lin That's really difficult, right? You have to juggle between, like, your own news like your original family, and then like, this is the thing that I learned in this society, or this is my upbringing, like in Australia. So that's the contrast. This is really about communication. I would think, how do you have a good balance with your life and also respectfully, let your parents know. Okay, this is your expectation. This is an older generation, like, extended back in your days, but now we are like, like, in a different society, different roles. Ronald Hoang It's a bit of a tug of war, isn't it? This idea of what Western society might be telling us, this is our Asian culture or our family, and I think it comes down to our values and what we value and how we want to live our life, and that also relates to relationships and sex and intimacy and to be living our values in a way that is authentic. Bertin Huynh You know, when we were collecting these questions, the people who were most open to asking them were women. And so we were also kind of wondering if, if men, or straight men in particular, or even straight Chinese men, if men have an issue talking about relationships, about sex, about dating? Ronald Hoang I think they probably would, on some level. I can imagine, because there is a sense of lack of competence. If they were to come out and say, hey, I'm having trouble with this, then it's like I'm less of a man, which is obviously not true in an issue. But I can imagine for some men that that would be a barrier for them. Hailey Lin Talking about this problem or issue that having in sex or even my performance can kind of, like make me less of a man, or even like impact my sense of manhood. Yeah, that can be a great barrier. Would that also because, like, this is a theory from one of my straight Chinese male friends, who was like, saying Asian men on dating apps just has no advantage. So you are, like, always the group that no one's gonna pick. Do you see that this is probably contributing to, like, why they are not opening up? Or what are your thoughts on these theories about? Like, oh, Asian men just are not attractive. Hailey Lin I think that's an interesting question, because I do believe, like people, they have different preferences. Some people prefer the same culture. So maybe if, like, they are local, like Australians, so they might want to date Australians. Or some people, like, Oh, I'm Asian, I like to date Asian. So it's about choices and preferences. Ronald Hoang And it could be a little bit of like, having a minority mindset where they're putting themselves down and counting themselves out already. Bertin Huynh Where does the line then exist between racism, preference and then fetish? Hailey Lin Fetish is something like, more like a non-conventional or non-traditional kind of sex. So if you have a fantasy towards an object or something like more extreme or more kinky, you call it a fetish. Ronald Hoang It can also, I think, maybe depend on what context, because for me, racism is about superiority and the power dynamic, where someone is demonstrating that they are more powerful or superior in some way to another person. So you can have a preference and just say, because it's just not my preference, it's not my cup of tea. But if it's because, well, because I just can't stand this Asian or this particular culture, because they do this or, you know, there's a sense of, my culture is better than yours, and that is racism. Hailey Lin And it also depends on the belief. So if a guy thinks, like, okay, all Asian women, they are submissive, they are like a good baby girl. And so that's why I picked them. I like to have sexual contact with them. So I think that's more like racism because of the theory of total assumptions that all Asian women can only be submissive and cannot be dominant in the sex play. I think that's racism. Wing Kuang Final question: to our young audience from the community, what's your advice to have the best sex and relationship? Hailey Lin I feel like echoes to what Ronald just brings out like at the beginning of our recording. Saying this is a misconception or myths about how sex with your partner must be, or always should be good. I feel like as a sex for a bit, I would say like good enough. You'll have frustration in your sex life, in your intimacy, but always remember, like enough sex. So sometimes we allow ourselves, I'm like, okay, below average sex, but sometimes also bring some novelty into your sex life. Because this is a human brain. This is human nature. We all like new stuff. Ronald Hoang My tip would be communication. Communication, communication. Because I think not only is communication a huge aspect of relationships, but it also is part of sex as well. And I think the research shows that the couples who have more sex are the ones who talk about it. So if you want more sex, just talk about it openly. It doesn't have to be something so serious. Wing Kuang I will put that on my dating app profile, on "who am I looking for" (section). "open to talk about sex to me at least three times a week". Bertin Huynh That's a good one. Thank you so much Hayley and Ronald for your wisdom today, and hopefully we've made that conversation a little bit easier to have. Hailey Lin Thank you. Lovely to be here. Ronald Hoang Bertin Huynh You're listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, produced by me and Dennis Fang, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favorite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.
SBS Australia
14-05-2025
- Business
- SBS Australia
Can ‘rich Chinese parents' save our great Australian Dream?
My mom is looking to sell her properties overseas just to help me purchase a house here… they're really worried that if they pass away, who's going to look after me. And they just want to feel safe knowing that I have a roof above my head. Joanne Phua, a Vietnamese-Chinese Australian fashion influencer is a series about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia, hosted by and for young Chinese Australians. In this season, we ask more difficult, relevant, spicy and sexy questions for you, so that you can be heard. SBS Audio 14/05/2025 28:12 Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple and Max Gosford Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people and Whadjuk people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what is it like to be young and Chinese in Australia today. My name is Wing, and I'm a former Chinese international student. Dennis Fang And I'm Dennis, a second-generation Chinese Australian from Western Sydney. Wing, I heard that your parents just visited you from China recently. Wing Kuang Yes and they heard a lot about you and considered you a successful 28-year-old Chinese kid for being able to buy your own house and pay your own mortgage already. Dennis Fang Thanks, Auntie and Uncle Kuang. So I bought my own place during the middle of COVID, which for someone in their 20s seemed like a huge achievement, but the reality is quite different, because, guess what? It was funded by the Bank of mum and dad. Wing Kuang It's been a news term throughout the last year, like the 'Bank of Mum and Dad', which means your parents step in and help you financially to get a house. But to be frank, when I first heard of this term, my reaction was like, this is actually a really Chinese thing. Dennis Fang But I think the question is, in the Australian context, can our "rich Chinese parents" still help us get into the property market. Wing Kuang Well our guests this week can perhaps contribute to this conversation. We first have Christopher Tan, a young Australian, Chinese journalist living in Perth who has just bought his first property with his partner. Christopher Tan Wing Kuang And we also have Joanne aka Bamitjoanne, a Vietnamese-Chinese Sydney-based fashion influencer who is ready to move into her own place. Is that correct? Joanne Dennis Fang Now, let's start with this question, both of you, what are your living arrangements like right now? Christopher Tan For myself and my partner, we're both in our sort of mid 20s, the goal was to always buy a house, even if it took, you know, a long time, and that's just because of wanting to build a family of ourselves, and wanting that privacy from our family as well. It took us about sort of four years of saving, of really saving, since we started our careers. For us, our story sort of really began in July last year, when we finally got into a home which is where I am at the moment. And you took, you know, months, years of looking, of trying, of getting rejected, long lines, all these pictures that you see over in Sydney is very similar here in Perth in terms of the rental market and the housing market and Yeah, after all that persevering, we finally got into our home in July. And Wing Kuang How about you, Joanne? you are renting right now in Sydney. Joanne Yes, that's correct. I'm still living the guilt free life of living in Surrey Hills. I have a housemate. It's actually a bit cheeky, because we are renting a one bedroom, but we've turned the studio into a second bedroom so my poor housemate does not have a door. Dennis Fang Does not have a door. How does that work? Joanne It's technically like a one bed one studio, meaning the was previously used as an office, but because it's a huge it's quite a large studio, actually, we've tried to put a bed in there, and it worked. So now he has a bed. He has like a TV and cabinet and everything. He just has no windows. And I think we're comfortable with each other now that we can, like, live like that. I'm very, very fortunate that he gave me the bedroom. I actually offered and said, you know, we can do, like, once a month, you have the bedroom thing. But he goes, 'No, you're the girl. You can have it'. So, yeah, I'm lucky. But, yeah, it's tough. Wing Kuang But you are an influencer. I assume you work from home a lot. How could you work from home when you actually don't have a place to work from home? Joanne So I have a desk in my bedroom. My bedroom is quite large. I can put a desk there. He is actually a makeup artist, and he's also a content creator as well. So we've turned our dining room into a studio, and we work from there. So we don't have a dining room. We eat on the couch or on the floor. Dennis Fang So you've got a bit like a, what they call in the industry, an influencer house. Joanne Dennis Fang Joanne Yeah, that's a great term. Like it could be in the, I think in the LA, they call it like hype house or something. Joanne, Dennis Fang Joanne you are finally looking at buying your own home. What do you think triggered this? Joanne I definitely think it's pressure from my Asian parents, especially my mom, to purchase a house. She's always been saying, like, 'when you pay rent, you're paying someone else's mortgage. Like, you know. I'd rather you pay your own mortgage'. And she is very encouraging. She like similar to your situation, bank of mom and dad, my mom is very forthcoming about being able to support me. So I actually got my pre approval from the bank about a month ago, and I can and am ready to purchase. It's just me and my lack of, I guess, motivation to actually go out and look. Wing Kuang And Chris, your case is you and your partner are trying to build a family in the future, and that's why you go for a house. But is there any pressure from parents as well saying that, Oh, you two have been together for a long time, it's time to get a house of your own. Christopher Tan I think our scenario is actually sort of bit different from Joanne, because, well, my partner and I are the youngest in our family, both of us, she comes from a family of five. I come from a family of three, so everyone has left the nest in our family except us two. So I think for us, it's a bit different, because our parents know that we're the last ones left in our own homes, that they try and keep us for as long as we want. But ironically, because, you know, with everything we're at, with our careers and stuff, we really want to sort of lead and buy our own home. Dennis Fang Chris, do you think there's any like cultural reasons why you are choosing to buy a house, or you have chosen to buy a house. Christopher Tan Well I think it's just the independence. I mean, like, I feel like I don't know if I if I was back in Singapore, which is where I'm originally from, I feel like if I was living there, I probably wouldn't have been as pressured to pressured, as in from myself to move out. And that's because the housing property there is just obviously very different. It's all high rises, and you know, you'd sort of benefit a lot more by living with your parents, for example, whereas out here you have the great Australian dream, they say, the front yard, the backyard, your own home, and being able to drive and get to places, having a car ownership. So for us, it's like, it's obviously our family moved to Australia to have that better lifestyle. And as you grow up and get to that stage where you earning a good, a decent salary, where you have your own car, where, where you're sort of pretty well positioned your relationship as well, you want to take that next stage and buy a house. Is symbolic of, sort of the relationship, hitting that next, next stage. Wing Kuang When my parents came to visit me, as typical Cantonese older generation, one of the way they do sightseeing is to go to house inspection. But interestingly, they just don't have any interest in houses. They just keep looking at apartments. Because they were like, Yeah, apartment is modern, apartment is convenient, like, We love living close to the city. And then that's how I heard from my friends who were also looking for places that in Australia, like, if you buy a house, you actually own the land. And if you buy an apartment, then the land is actually getting divided and shared by people who live in the building. And this is when Dennis, you mentioned your story to me that your dad insists you buying a house rather than apartments because of the land. Dennis Fang Yes, and this is why I live so far away from work, because my dad and mom always told me that the number one investment that you can make is land, and there's no alternative. So even though I wanted to live in like Surrey Hills, some of where there's there's young people, and it's trendy, and there's events on my parents were like, No, you must live in Western Sydney. Have a big plot of land, maybe some horses. But we compromised and sort of lived in the near Parramatta, so less than very, very west Sydney. So that was a compromise. Wing Kuang Joanne, land, or being close to the city? Joanne Wing Kuang Joanne I think for me, I obviously prioritize lifestyle. I think my mental health is a lot better just not having to commute. I used to live with my parents. I understand what the commute like is like, but for my mom, she has a very similar mentality to your parents. So she is always like, get land. However, after looking at the prices in Sydney at the moment, she has kind of turned around and because she's kind of doing the shopping for me, she has been sending me links to apartments now. Like, she will always ask, like, is that a block of six, or is that a block of 40? The other thing she looks at is strata. So like strata, if it's expensive, if there's swimming pools, she's and that's an immediate no for my mom, because she's like, why are you paying strata such high fees, especially if you want to eventually rent it out. You're not going to live there. You You're it's coming out of your pocket. Wing Kuang My parents are completely different, like they were shocked by the Sydney's property prices, but they really insist looking at new apartments like Dennis Fang Wing Kuang Yeah, even though I tell them, like, yeah, maybe actually new apartments are not that good, because we have had lots of reporting on the quality of these apartments. Then they were like, well, but there's, like, a modern lifestyle. If you just live in a block of four, like, the building's old and you have to maintain it, and you don't even have, like, good elevator. Dennis Fang Yeah, and have you guys heard of how much you actually need to earn to afford one of these places? Like in Perth, I think the figure was something close to 130 in Sydney. I think it was over $200,000 every single year. I mean, Chris, you obviously live with your partner. Is that how you're able to afford everything? Christopher Tan It's interesting, you mentioned that because I recently did a story with someone who worked in the fly-in-fly-out industry, so the mining industry, and that's the biggest employer in Western Australia, and it's a common perception is that people that work in that industry earn a lot of money. And so I've met this guy who was a single guy who was renting close to the city, close to the airport, and he tells me that he struggles with trying to buy a house. He reckons he is never going to ever be able to purchase a house, and that's because he's in the single income situation, whereas, for myself and my partner, being a door income, we're just getting by at this stage, but I can't even imagine, like, what we're paying now, but half in there. Dennis Fang And Joanne, do you think if you weren't having money from Mom and Dad, how would your situation be like,affording a place in Sydney where you are expected to turn over 200 grand every single year to afford? Joanne I think I would likely look interstate, so maybe Brisbane, or even Melbourne. I think the property prices are a lot more affordable, but my mum likes Sydney. She wants me to have a property here, especially the first one. So gotta do what mom says if I'm using her money, you know? Oh Dennis Fang yes. In our first episode, one of our guests talked about how they chose to live particularly close to their parents so they can still have the family community, the family support system. Is that something you're also looking for? Joanne Not necessarily for me, I think I'm into more of like a reinvesting mindset. I potentially, if I purchased something in Sydney, would live there for six months and then rent it out. Wing Kuang Joanne Wing Kuang How about you, Chris? Like you are now in Perth. Like, is it part of your plan that you end up moving back to that family circle, especially if you plan to start a family? Christopher Tan that's always a thing, actually brought up in Asian cultures is how far or how close do you move away from your parents? And it's interesting, being the last kid I had the luxury of seeing what my sisters did, so I can make up my own mind. And interestingly enough, my second sister decided to build just about one or two roundabouts across from my parents place. I was still in the same suburb, just like she obviously thought that she would get, you know, her privacy being away from for mom and dad. But every second day, like you know that that privacy sort of gets pretty blurred that line. And obviously I saw that unfold, you know, in the months, in the years and and decided for myself that I wanted to get far away enough where they can't sort of just pop by the same day or the next day, but close enough that they can just sort of come over for dinner or whatever, and if they ever want to come visit. Wing Kuang Especially when you don't want to cook that night, you can just ring your parents and say that, hey, can you, like, put an extra chopstick on the table and I can have the dinner. Christopher Tan Well we're actually going over tonight. Wing Kuang There's this really strong stereotype about people living in the West that they just don't want to buy houses, like they all just want to rent, because there's a part of the individualism that's part of the freedom they want. I thought that that would be my life as well after I moved to Australia. But then the long immigration process, the longer it was, the stronger desire I have to buy my own place. I'm seeing these phenomenon in a lot of my first-generation migrant friends, especially women who are approaching their 30. Joanne, like you are born in Australia, did you notice something similar, like among your female friends circle? Joanne I think among my Australian born Chinese friends, they still have the mentality where purchasing property is important. A lot of my friends actually have purchased property. And way ahead in a journey, they own, like three to four properties, whereas amongst my Caucasian Australian friends, not so much. They are very much, you know, we they live in the east, they rent. They're not really thinking about purchasing houses at the moment, yeah. Wing Kuang Do you feel that they are prioritizing getting a house then getting a partner? Joanne Oh that's an interesting question. I'm not sure about partner. I don't think it's a correlation. I feel like, you know, some breakups are breakups, like they just happen, but I do think a lot of them are trying to get married first before purchasing property together. Dennis Fang Oh, that's interesting, because my parents came from Shanghai, and one of the things in that culture is you first need to buy a house, and then you can possibly get married afterwards. It's especially important for guys, because allegedly, what I hear from my parents at least when women are looking for potential husbands, they first need to make sure, have they got a house? Have they got a car, preferably a Tesla or something like that. And then after you've ticked all those boxes, then you become eligible for marriage. Is that something you guys have heard of? Wing Kuang Especially you, Chris, now you just got your new house with your partner. Dennis Fang Your partner demand that you had a house faster than you could get married? Christopher Tan I don't feel like it was a demand. I feel like that was my personal responsibility. I felt like that's what I wanted to achieve first. And I felt like that would have built the foundations, you know, rather than getting married, having kids and then going back to mum and dads, for example, and then trying to figure out that, you know, co relationships, or the situation when you were already married, for example, whereas, you know, sharing a house together, you're doing life sort of together, you know, a lot of things, and it's just so much, it's just so much easier in that way. That was just my sort of understanding of the foundations of how I wanted to, yeah, to get by. Dennis Fang So it does seem like at least second-generation Chinese people have kind of lost that mentality somewhat and have adopted the Western ideologies of individualism. Is that what you guys are feeling? Joanne I think it's not so much that I feel like maybe in the Chinese culture there's a lot of emphasis on stability, especially back then in the war times, it's a lot about, you know, like, just put your head down and get to work, and just as long as you can feed your family, then we're good. Whereas now we have the privilege to think bigger, like, it's not just survival mode anymore, especially in the Western world, like we have the privilege to think, Okay, what else is there beyond just working a nine to five, buying a house, having a car, getting married, having babies, like what I don't want to be trapped in that social dynamic of this is what you have to take off. And a lot of people get into that mindset. They take off everything, and then they're like, Wait, hang on. Why am I still not happy? I thought all these things will make me happy, but I think searching for your own, and this is getting really deep, but like, yeah, I guess, like, there's more to life than you know, ticking off the traditional boxes of what society expects of you. Christopher Tan Well I think it's interesting, because I had the understanding from my parents that They would have expected me to get married first, then get a house, then, you know, have kids after that, because that was the route that they took. And then they really struggled to save together, to try and buy a house and have kids and and do that, whereas I feel like in this position that I've been that I currently am, where we've already, you know, bought a house together, and now we're saving, and now we're sending, you know, at our own terms, if we want to get a new car, for example, we wanted to get some some furniture. We're saving, you know, 5050, and we're putting it together and saving at our in terms so we don't struggle. And I think that's also a privilege of being the youngest and the only and the only boy as well. Yeah, it's been really good in terms of just taking our time and having our own timelines that we want to achieve. Wing Kuang Now change the topic. Australian media love headline showcasing how rich Chinese people are, especially in the property markets. And most of the time they will refer this as like the rich overseas Chinese. I'm not rich. I'm definitely not rich. But how do you guys feel when we contribute to the headline about the property market? Joanne Sometimes I tell people I'm Malaysian. I don't say I'm Malaysian Chinese, just because of that stereotype. Dennis Fang How's the stereotypes different? Joanne people talk about the Rich Asians. It's usually from mainland China, and I've only been to China once. Even though my blood is Chinese, I can't really relate to anything mainland China, but I relate so much to Malaysia because I grew up there. I like the food, I speak, the language, you know, the culture I understand. So think it's like a kind of like, similar to how they say you choose your friends, not your family, kind of a little bit like, I don't feel connected to China at all. Wing Kuang And how about you, Chris, when you are reading those headline as a reader, but also as a journalist? Christopher Tan It's interesting, I guess that that move just to reference that you know what you're asking the movie Crazy Rich Asians, doesn't also help in that, in that scenario, and it's interesting, you mentioned that because, as I was mentioning earlier in the program, I'm from Singapore. A lot of a lot of my friends that get to know me over time, they're like, Oh, you're from Singapore. You moved here, so you must be rich. But it's, it's not. Not quite the it's not quite the case. We like, yes, of course, we took the plane, we came over, but my parents worked really hard in Singapore to make sure we could have a life in Australia. But it's not the classic. Oh, you own a car in Singapore. You must be rich, sort of stereotype. Dennis Fang I do love that film, though, especially the Coldplay cover at the end. So there was this statistic from a few years ago from the Westpac Ipsos research, I believe. And it basically said that Asian Australians were much more likely to believe that their parents should share their generational wealth in the form of basically helping their children afford houses. I think the statistic was 60% versus 39% of Australians in general. What do you guys think about that? Does that sound about right? Joanne I did expect my parents to kind of support me in terms of housing and like, you know, the groceries and stuff, but not so much actually, physically giving me cash. I've never, like asked for money from my parents. I've always kind of lived within my means. I think experiences or stories from my Caucasian Australian friends, they are parents kicking them out when they're 18, or they're expected to kind of like fend for themselves when as soon as they start working. So I do think the mindset there is slightly different. Yes, I feel Christopher Tan like, from my experience, my parents growing up in Australia, they like, like, a lot of the times when I got when I was in primary school, a lot of my friends, my Australian Anglo friends, would go to the canteen, and they would be able to purchase stuff, whereas I had always had the home cooked food for lunch. And from a very young age, my parents would give me very little pocket money. And growing up, even, you know, you did ask for toys, you asked for nice, shiny kings, but they resist giving that. And I think that sort of paid off today, because I understand the value of saving my other friends that you know were given so much. And in saying that as well, my parents, they're not well off, but they're not, you know, they work hard, so they're not poor either. And the money that they keep aside from me, for example, in my scenario, was going towards my university fees, for example. So even though, when I was at a young age, I would not get all the shiny, nice toys and all that, all that money that they saved up, you know, even the red packets and all that they keep aside for me, all that money has gone towards a fund that has today paid off for my HECS, which, in theory, now during the process of buying a property, that's one factor that has allowed the bank to process me even better. Because, yeah, I don't have finances, don't have hacks, I don't have all those things that sort of weigh me down. Dennis Fang It does seem like that The Great Australian Dream of having a house with a front yard, a backyard, a family white picket fence seems to be quite dead in just my anecdotal experience, but among Chinese people, particularly my parents, I think they've really bought into it, and they still really believe in it, and they have, somewhat, in my experience, At least sense that dream to their children as well. So me and my brother, what do you guys think about that? Joanne Oh yeah, my mom definitely subscribes to that. Wing Kuang That's why the land is important. Joanne Yes, that's why she wants land. Dennis Fang Joanne Oh, she doesn't really care about the fake fence. But yeah, my mom definitely still subscribes to that mentality, Christopher Tan If I could raise the fact of, I guess, cultural significance in that question, I feel like, yeah, my parents and even my partner's parents like us to have property with front and backyard and all that massive space, mainly because then we can host family for dinner, for reunion, dinner for Christmas and all those sort of things. And in a sense, as well, because we're hosting and other family and friends are coming in a way that, as you probably understand as well, our parents love to brag about our kids having homes and being able to have all the family together. So I feel like that's that there's that value in why they want that to happen, and it makes them proud. And I guess it makes us proud as well when we can host. And it's not just mum and dads all the time, but we all know like mum and dad, when we try and host, they always say, oh, let's just just come over. We'll prep and we'll cook. Wing Kuang From our conversation. There are just so much about this idea of having your own place and buying up your own property for our community. It goes beyond the symbol of being successful, but it's also about security and the sense of belonging as a migrant. But the housing market right now in Australia is so bad for young people. What does that mean to young Chinese Australians who are now looking at the market? Christopher Tan I mean, I can only speak from my experience, but I feel like just through my journey, yes, it is. The market is is crazy. It's very difficult, both rental and buying, and this is also partly the media responsibility in playing this up. But I feel like if you if you just keep saving, if you just keep saving and keep saving and keep having a goal. I know that gold keeps getting pushed up by the market prices, but if you keep saving, you can get there one day, whether if it's with a partner or by yourself, maybe that timeline won't be as realistic anymore. But I feel like, just with my sort of Asian sort of mentality, I feel like, if you just keep working, if you keep working harder to save, cut more costs, I feel like one day you will get in Wing Kuang And how about you, Joanne? Joanne I think at the moment, a smart way to do it is to kind of diversify your income, the down payment that you're putting towards a house. There are some discussions about whether or not that will eventually get a better ROI than actually just putting it into a Vanguard Index Fund. So I think a lot of young people are starting to do that now at the same time, yes, eventually we will purchase houses, but the age where you purchase a house is getting later and later, and that shares a bit more of a more favorable way of investment at the moment. Wing Kuang Our question for this podcast is, can our 'rich Chinese parents' do help us get into the property market? What is your answer, Joanne? Joanne I think yes. Unfortunately, my mom is looking to sell her properties overseas just to help me purchase a house here. So and they are living so frugally, they don't go out like me. I eat out all the time. They go to Flemington market, and they buy a one kilogram of cucumber for $5 you know. So they're a lot better at saving and they're really worried that, you know, if they pass away, who's going to look after me? And they just want to feel safe knowing that I have a roof above my head, and no matter what I own the house, I'm not getting kicked out. I won't ever be on the streets struggling. So at the end of the day, it's just her love towards me and that, yeah, I appreciate that. Christopher Tan The main thing for me, or the main word for me, is drip fed, and I think that's from my experience. So what I mean by drip fed is you should still try and save as much money as you can by yourself, with your partner, or whoever it is, but when it gets to the point where you've put an offer when you're so close, and this is from our experience, when you're getting so close, you've got the offer, but you just need to put in a little bit more to get there. Then that's when your parents will come in, and that's why, that's what I mean by drip drip feeding is when your parents give you a little bit of money to help you pay for it, but always in mind that you'll pay them back at the end of the day. We want to pay them back, because we want to know that we own this house and we worked hard for it, and it makes you also value everything, literally everything around in this house, from the fridge to, you know, paint job, to everything that you paid for. Dennis Fang Thank you so much, guys. You've been listening to Chinese ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and me Dennis Fang, and is produced by Bertin Huynh, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese ish on your favourite podcast platform or head to SBS or the SBS audio app.
