Serial Killer Expert Reveals How Bryan Kohberger 'Completely' Fooled Her
A renowned expert on killers who once taught Bryan Kohberger - who has admitted to the brutal stabbings of four University of Idaho students - said he had "completely" fooled her.
Katherine Ramsland, who taught Kohberger at DeSales University, spoke publicly about her former student for the first time in an interview with NewsNation on Tuesday night after it emerged that Kohberger was set to plead guilty to the murders in a deal to avoid the death penalty. She had not spoken out until now as she had been expected to appear as a witness in Kohberger's trial.
Ramsland - who worked with BTK serial killer Dennis Rader to co-author Confession of a Serial Killer: The Untold Story of Dennis Rader, the BTK Killer - told NewsNation's Brian Entin that she would be interested in working with Kohberger.
"I want to understand how he was able to completely fool me," she said.
Newsweek has contacted Ramsland for further comment via email.
Katherine Ramsland speaking in 2016 at Penn State Berks.
Katherine Ramsland speaking in 2016 at Penn State Berks.
Lauren A. Little/MediaNews Group/Reading Eagle via Getty
Why It Matters
Kohberger, 30, pleaded guilty on Wednesday to charges that he murdered Kaylee Goncalves, 21, Madison Mogen, 21, Xana Kernodle, 20, and Ethan Chapin, 20. The four students were fatally stabbed in a rental home near the university's campus in Moscow, Idaho, in the early hours of November 13, 2022.
The slayings had sparked a massive search for the perpetrator. Kohberger, then a Ph.D student in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology at Washington State University in nearby Pullman, Washington, was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania weeks after the murders. Investigators matched his DNA to genetic material recovered from a knife sheath found at the crime scene.
He was then charged with four counts of murder and one count of felony burglary. When asked to enter a plea in 2023, Kohberger stood silent, prompting a judge to enter not-guilty pleas on his behalf.
His trial had been set to start in August, but Kohberger agreed to the plea deal after his attorneys tried - and failed - to get the death penalty taken off the table in the pending trial. The deal has divided the victims' families, with some supporting it while others are furious that it will allow Kohberger to avoid the death penalty.
What To Know
Ramsland said she met Kohberger in the fall of 2018 after he started a four-year program at DeSales University as a psychology major on the forensics track.
"He selected the forensic track which made him an advisee for me," she said. "He seemed like, eager to be in the classroom. He was polite, he was respectful, intense and curious and there was no reason for me to think that he was anything other than someone who was really interested in this potential career."
She said there wasn't anything that "stood out" to her and she didn't observe any "red flags."
"He was always really quite respectful and grateful," Ramsland said. "He would thank me for things. He was attentive. He would do the work. I didn't have any concerns.
She said she taught him in four classes, including an introduction to forensic psychology and one on death investigation. She also taught him in a class on behavioral criminology and another called "Dangerous Minds: The Psychology of Anti-Social Behavior."
"We all, everyone in this field, forensic psychology and criminology, know that we could have students who might become offenders," she said.
"But we also know that the majority, the vast majority of our students will not, and will instead go into a field like law enforcement... We know that there's always a risk that we're attracting somebody who wants to do something terrible hoping we wont ever have that but in my case, I did."
She went on: "I think just the idea of wanting to study offenders and what their thought process was, how they felt about their crimes, wanting to study that and then finding out if this is a person who then is now saying he's guilty of doing these things. I have to look at the framework of what I taught and wonder, did I inspire him in some way? But I can't second guess that because I may have inspired somebody else to become an FBI agent. And unfortunately, in this field, that's what we live with."
Ramsland said she had thought Kohberger was "a promising student who really could have made a mark in this career."
She added: "I thought that so I was disappointed, angry and... shocked that, you know, this is who he turned out to be, and horrified for the victims and their families."
Asked if she would want to study Kohberger, Ramsland said: "If he wanted to do that, I would... this is what we do, to try to look at developmental trajectories, the triggers so that we can see red flags faster, we can prevent people like this from wreaking the havoc that they do."
She added: "I know he has the intellectual capacity to do it, to be self-reflective, to help think through how his life came to this. And so I would definitely do it if he were willing. And it would be hard but I think because I have so much material from him, I have questions for him that I think nobody else but me could ask."
What People Are Saying
Asked about Kohberger having her "fooled," Ramsland also said: "Well, I study the ones who are really good at it because I want to really try to understand what can we see in the constellation of behaviors that will tip us off easier because people who are really good at passing as normal and keeping their dark side hidden can fool people, can fool all the experts, for a long period of time. I think anybody in my field will tell you they can be duped by a really skilful predatory type of person."
Prosecutors wrote in a letter to the families of the victims: "This agreement ensures that the defendant will be convicted, will spend the rest of his life in prison, and will not be able to put you and the other families through the uncertainty of decades of post-conviction appeals."
The Goncalves family, who opposed the plea agreement, said in a Facebook post on Tuesday: "While we are cognizant that some may have wanted the plea, the prosecution relayed to us it was NOT a majority vote that was the deciding factor in offering this plea. At a bare minimum, please - require a full confession, full accountability, location of the murder weapon, confirmation the defendant acted alone, & the true facts of what happened that night. We deserve to know when the beginning of the end was."
Mogen's father Ben Mogen, who is supportive of the deal, told CBS News: "We can actually put this behind us and not have these future dates and future things that we don't want to have to be at, that we shouldn't have to be at, that have to do with this terrible person. We get to just think about the rest of [our] lives and have to try and figure out how to do it without Maddie and the rest of the kids."
Martin Souto Diaz, an attorney for the Kohberger family, said in a statement on behalf of the family, provided to CBS News: "In light of recent developments, the Kohbergers are asking members of the media for privacy, respect, and responsible judgement during this time.
"We will continue to allow the legal process to unfold with respect to all parties, and will not release any comments or take any questions."
What's Next
Kohberger is due to be sentenced on July 23.
Hashtags
Try Our AI Features
Explore what Daily8 AI can do for you:
Comments
No comments yet...
Related Articles
Los Angeles Times
8 hours ago
- Los Angeles Times
A Q-tip and spotless car were key evidence linking Bryan Kohberger to murders of 4 Idaho students
BOISE, Idaho — The lead prosecutor tasked with finding justice for four University of Idaho students killed in a grisly quadruple stabbing more than two years ago laid out his key evidence Wednesday at a court hearing for Bryan Kohberger, who agreed to plead guilty earlier this week to avoid the death penalty. The evidentiary summary — recited by lead prosecutor Bill Thompson before Kohberger entered his pleas — spun a dramatic tale that included a DNA-laden Q-tip plucked from the garbage in the middle of the night, a getaway car stripped so clean of evidence that it was 'essentially disassembled inside' and a fateful early-morning Door Dash order that may have put one of the victims in Kohberger's path. These details offered new insights into how the crime unfolded on Nov. 13, 2022, and how investigators ultimately solved the case using surveillance video, cellphone tracking and DNA matching. But the synopsis leaves hanging key questions that could have been answered at trial — including a motive for the stabbings and why Kohberger picked that house, and those victims, all apparent strangers to him. The small farming community of Moscow, in the northern Idaho panhandle, had not had a homicide in about five years when Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle and Madison Mogen were found dead at a rental home near campus. Kohberger, now 30, had begun a doctoral degree in criminal justice at nearby Washington State University — across the state line from Moscow, Idaho — months before the crimes. 'The defendant has studied crime,' Thompson said, as the victims' family members dabbed at their tears. 'In fact, he did a detailed paper on crime scene processing when he was working on his Ph.D., and he had that knowledge skill set.' Kohberger's cellphone began connecting with cell towers in the area of the crime more than four months before the stabbings, Thompson said, and pinged on those towers 23 times between the hours of 10 p.m. and 4 a.m. in that time period. A compilation of surveillance videos from neighbors and businesses also placed Kohberger's vehicle — known to investigators because of a routine traffic stop by police in August — in the area. On the night of the killings, Kohberger parked behind the house and entered through a sliding door to the kitchen at the back of the house shortly after 4 a.m., Thompson said. He moved to the third floor, where Madison Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves were sleeping. After killing both of them with a knife, Kohberger left a knife sheath next to Mogen's body. Both victims' blood was later found on the sheath, along with DNA from a single male that ultimately helped investigators pinpoint Kohberger as the only suspect. On the floor below, another student was still awake. Xana Kernodle had ordered Door Dash not long before, and as Kohberger was leaving, he crossed paths with her and killed her with a large knife, Thompson said. He then killed her boyfriend, Ethan Chapin, who was sleeping in Kernodle's bedroom. Kohberger left two others in the house alive, including one roommate who was expected to testify at trial that sometime before 4:19 a.m. she saw an intruder there with 'bushy eyebrows,' wearing black clothing and a ski mask. Roughly five minutes later, the car could be seen on the next-door neighbor's surveillance camera. speeding away so fast 'the car almost loses control as it makes the corner,' Thompson said. After Kohberger fled the scene, Thompson said, his cover-up was elaborate. Prosecutors believe he drove back roads to his apartment in Pullman, Wash., to avoid surveillance cameras on the major roads and didn't turn his cellphone back on until 4:48 a.m. By 5:26 a.m., he was back in Pullman, Thompson said. Later, Kohberger changed his car registration from Pennsylvania to Washington state — significant for investigators who were combing through surveillance camera footage because Pennsylvania law doesn't require a front license plate, making it harder to identify the vehicle. And by the time investigators did catch up with him weeks later, his apartment and office in nearby Pullman were scrubbed clean. 'Spartan would be a kind characterization. There was nothing there, nothing of evidentiary value was found,' Thompson said of Kohberger's apartment. The car, too, 'had been essentially disassembled inside,' he added. 'It was spotless. The defendant's car had been meticulously cleaned inside.' Investigators had honed in on Kohberger, but they needed to prove he was their suspect. With the DNA of a single mystery male on the knife sheath, they worked with the FBI and the local sanitation department to secretly retrieve garbage from the Pennsylvania home of Kohberger's parents, seeking a DNA match to their suspect. 'They conducted what's called a trash pull during the nighttime hours,' Thompson said, and 'took trash that had been set out on the street for collection' and sent it to Idaho's forensics lab. The pile of garbage yielded investigative gold: A Q-tip that contained DNA identified 'as coming from the father of the person whose DNA was found on the knife sheath that was found by Madison Mogen's body on the bed,' he said. With that, Kohberger was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, where he had gone for the holidays, and ultimately was extradited to Idaho for prosecution. Even while prosecutors detailed that night, a key question remains: Why did Kohberger target that house and those victims? Did he know them? And what was his motive? 'We do not have evidence that the defendant had direct contact with 1122 or with residents in 1122, but we can put his phone in the area on those times,' Thompson said, referring to the house number where the murders took place. Some of that evidence may have come out at trial, and may yet be contained in documents related to the case that have been sealed by the court until after a July 23 sentencing hearing. A gag order in place for all attorneys in the case is still in effect as well. Those documents include witness lists, a list of exhibits, an analysis of the evidence, requests for additional discovery, filings about mitigating factors and various unsuccessful defense motions that sought to introduce alternative suspects, among other things. With the case solved, families remain divided over its resolution. The deal stipulates that Kohberger will be spared execution in exchange for four consecutive life sentences. He also waived his right to appeal and to challenge the sentence. Chapin's and Mogen's families support the deal. 'We now embark on a new path. We embark on a path of hope and healing,' Mogen's family said in a statement. The family of Kaylee Goncalves publicly denounced the plea deal ahead of Wednesday's hearing and her father refused to attend the proceedings. Goncalves' 18-year-old sister, Aubrie Goncalves, said in a Facebook post that 'Bryan Kohberger facing a life in prison means he would still get to speak, form relationships, and engage with the world.' 'Meanwhile, our loved ones have been silenced forever,' she wrote. Bedayn writes for the Associated Press.
New York Post
9 hours ago
- New York Post
Bryan Kohberger set to die one of America's worst prisons — with feces-smeared cages, rioting inmates and ‘biohazard' ventilation system
Bryan Kohberger is set to spend the rest of his life in one of America's worst prisons — a maximum-security hellhole that faces accusations of feces-smeared cages, brutally violent guards, rioting inmates and a 'biohazard' ventilation system. The 30-year-old convicted killer of four University of Idaho students will serve his sentence in the state's most brutal prison alongside Chad Daybell, the child murderer and husband of 'Doomsday' cult mom Lori Vallow, as well as two of Idaho's most notorious serial killers. Idaho Maximum Security Institution (IMSI), where Kohberger is expected to be sentenced to life in prison, opened in 1989, hosts the Gem State's 'most disruptive male residents' and violent criminals. Since then, it has developed a reputation as not just the toughest prison in the state — but one of the harshest in the nation. 10 Bryan Kohberger is likely to spend the rest of his life in Idaho Maximum Security Institution. TNS 10 The prison has been named as one of the worst in America, according to Security Journal Americas. KBOI IMSI was named as one of the '15 Worst Prisons in America' by Security Journal Americas in 2024 — alongside other infamous institutions including Louisiana State Penitentiary, AKA 'The Farm,' San Quentin in California and Attica Correctional Facility in western New York. The magazine highlighted its alleged harsh treatment of inmates, excessive use of solitary confinement, and lack of mental health resources. Violence between inmates and allegations of excessive force by correctional officers were also brought up, as well as overcrowding leading to 'a tense and volatile environment,' the outlet wrote. 10 The prison came under fire in the past for the excessive use of solitary confinement. KBOI In 2016, the newly appointed director of the Idaho Department of Correction looked to reform the state's use of solitary as punishment. Many of the inmates were locked away in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, KBOI reported at the time. 10 A previous prison director warned solitary was turning inmates into 'animals.' Idaho DOC This meant little to no human interaction, food in cells, and only showering three times a week, a pattern some inmates live for decades. '97 percent of these guys are going to get out and walk into an Idaho community,' Kempf told KBOI. 'If we treat them like crap, if we treat them like animals, they're going to walk out of a prison like that.' In particular, he highlighted the dangers of excessive solitary confinement on inmates. 10 The prison has been known for its punishing conditions. KTVB 'You do that for 10 or 15 years, you've created a monster out of that person,' he said. Kohberger, 30, who on Tuesday pleaded guilty to killing four University of Idaho students in their Moscow home while they slept in November 2022, has been held in maximum security at Ada County Jail in Boise since the trial was moved to the state capital. 10 Bryan Kohberger, 30, pleaded guilty this week to murdering four University of Idaho students in 2022. AP But he is expected to be transferred to Idaho Maximum Security Institution, some 10 miles south, following his sentencing hearing on July 23. The remote prison is surrounded by a double perimeter fence along with razor wire, an electronic detection system, and 24-hour armed patrol. 10 The prison hosts more than 500 of the Gem State's most dangerous and violent criminals. TNS Last year, 90 inmates at the IMSI went on a hunger strike demanding better treatment and services. They complained of feces-covered recreation 'cages,' long bouts of isolation, serious medical care delays, and a dirty HVAC system they compared to a 'biohazard,' the Idaho Statesman reported at the time. The prison was forced to confirm that it halted many services, including access to certain religious practices, in 2020 in response to unprecedented staff shortages brought about by the Covid-19 pandemic. To quell the riot, prison authorities used pepper spray and tear gas on the inmates, the Idaho Department of Corrections (IDOC) confirmed. Here's the latest coverage on Bryan Kohberger: The IDOC claimed the protest's ringleaders wanted to force staff to 'segregate' housing by gang and racial affiliation, the Idaho Statesman reported. The IDOC didn't respond immediately to requests for comment. 10 Kohberger's fellow inmates will include 'Doomsday' child killer Chad Daybell. AP The prison, built to replace the original Idaho Penitentiary — which was built even before Idaho became a state in 1890 — can house a maximum capacity of 549 inmates, including a dedicated section for mental health offenders. It offers restrictive housing beds and disciplinary detention. 10 Serial killer Gerald Pizzuto is on death row at the prison. It also includes Idaho's death row, where all eight of the state's male inmates facing death sentences are held. Kohberger's deal, which also spared him a trial and the chance of death by firing squad, means he must spend the rest of his life in prison with no opportunity for parole or appeals, after the criminology PhD student admitted to murdering Ethan Chapin, 20, Kaylee Goncalves, 21, Xana Kernodle, 20, and Madison Mogen, 21. 10 Also held at the prison is Thomas Eugene Creech, who is feared to have murdered more than 40 people. Idaho department of correctons Other famous inmates at the prison include Daybell, currently on death row for murdering his first wife Tammy, as well as his second wife Lori Vallow's two children, Tylee Ryan, 16, and JJ Vallow, 7. Serial killer Gerald Pizzuto is awaiting execution for four 1985 murders in Idaho and Washington. Another resident is serial killer Thomas Eugene Creech, who is believed to have murdered as many as 43 people between 1974 and 1981. He was convicted of five killings.
New York Post
9 hours ago
- New York Post
Bryan Kohberger fancied himself a criminal mastermind — so why'd he make so many dumb mistakes?
Well, that's one way to fail criminology school. Bryan Kohberger had been in a PhD in criminology program at Washington State University when he drove to the nearby Moscow, Idaho, and slaughtered four University of Idaho undergrads in 2022. But for that crime, this student gets an 'F.' Advertisement It wasn't that he didn't try to cover his tracks: Kohberger clearly had a firm grasp of common investigative techniques and took pains to subvert them — including scrubbing his car meticulously clean after the killings. But his attempts were so half-baked that they only made him seem more suspicious, according to prosecutors. Experts say he attempted to cover his tracks, and was more careful than killers — but he made some obvious mistakes. Advertisement 8 Bryan Kohberger appears at the Ada County Courthouse, in Boise, Idaho. via REUTERS 'He was certainly smarter than most murderers,' a former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani told The Post. 'But it wasn't the perfect crime.' Rahmani noted that it took weeks for authorities to find the suspect, which is 'atypical now with advances in technology.' These are some of Kohberger's biggest blunders. Leaving his DNA behind Advertisement The murder weapon was never found, but a knife sheath smudged with male DNA left at the scene became the prosecution's best piece of physical evidence. 8 The shoes of four University of Idaho students who were stabbed to death in an off-campus house are removed on Wednesday, December 7, 2022. James Keivom 8 A handwritten list of items seized from Bryan Kohberger's parents' home. Rahmani said the blunder revealed that the the killings were harder than Kohberger expected — betraying a 'a chaotic scene when you're stabbing multiple people and you're just by yourself.' Advertisement 'It's not easy,' he added. Another former prosecutor and Court TV anchor Vinnie Politan said Kohberger likely 'ran into an unexpected situation,' when one of the victims, Madison Mogen, wasn't alone. She and best friend Kaylee Goncalves were sleeping together in the same bed. They were the first victims. And the dropped sheath likely revealed that they did not die without a struggle. 'The women fought back, and in the struggle' the knife sheath fell out, Politan speculated. 'Then when he was leaving he ran into Xana [Kernodle] then Ethan [Chapin], two more unexpected victims,' Politan explained. 'He was exhausted and didn't have time to think, so he left without any realizing he didn't have the sheath.' Buying the murder weapon on Amazon Prosecutors said Kohberger purchased a KA-BAR military-style knife, a strap sheath, and a sharpener on Amazon while living at his parents' house in Pennsylvania months before the murders. 8 A sheath like the one found at the Idaho crime scene. KA-BAR He seemed to know his online purchases might be traced: He used a gift card, which can be anonymous, to make the payments and even tried to delete his purchase history. Advertisement But why make the purchase online at all when anyone can buy a knife with cash at any Walmart or truck stop? Defense attorney David Seltzer said, 'clearly Kohberger left break crumbs linking him to the crimes, and we will never know why, or if they were heat-of-the-moment mistakes.' Seltzer said he wouldn't be surprised if mental health played a role in Kohberger's crimes. Driving his own car to the crime scene, then cleaning it too well Kohberger's white Hyundai Elantra is what first landed him on detectives' radar. Advertisement Security camera footage showed the car circling the victims' block, parking behind their house, and then speeding away after the crime. A search of white Elantra drivers included Kohberger, who had been pulled over near the University of Idaho campus months before the killings. 8 Bodycam footage of Bryan Kohberger being pulled over for running a red light. Washington State Univ Police / MEGA 8 Bodycam footage of Bryan Kohberger's car at a traffic stop. Washington State Univ Police / MEGA He did thoroughly clean the interior of the car afterward, prosecutors said – but that only made him seem more suspicious, Latah County Prosecuting Attorney Bill Thompson revealed Wednesday. Advertisement 'I think we can all look to our own cars. Those compartments in the doors where you try to keep them clean where you put stuff? There's always some degree of crud in there — they were spotless,' Thompson said. 'Defendant's car had been meticulously cleaned inside.' Thompson noted that Kohberger has previously written a paper on crime scene evidence collection — making his deep-clean even more suspicious. His phone also tracked him driving to Moscow, Idaho — the town where the killings happened — at least 23 times before the murders. He kept his own phone Anyone who's watched 'Breaking Bad' knows to use a prepaid, burner cell phone when they're up to no good. Advertisement 8 Photo of four University of Idaho students hours before their deaths. Instagram/@kayleegoncalves 8 Mugshot of Bryan Kohberger, inmate number 5356 at the Latah County Sheriff's Office. Latah County Jail But Kohberger kept a traceable cell phone. He was careful to deactivate the device before driving to Moscow on the night of the murders, but it was only off between around 2:30 a.m. and 4:45 a.m. – the exact window of the killings. He also reactivated the phone in another town 25 miles away from his apartment. Rahmani said Kohberger should have just left his phone at home. 'He was careful,' the lawyer said. 'But he's not a genius.' Taking out the trash Kohberger knew that his DNA could tie him to the crime scene: He wore latex gloves to the supermarket and hid trash that contained his hair or saliva. At one point during the four days he was surveilled at his parents' Pennsylvania home by the FBI prior to his arrest, Kohberger was observed putting trash from his family's house into neighbors' garbage bins around 4 a.m. Kohberger clearly knew investigators search suspects' garbage, but it apparently didn't occur to him that agents might be watching the house — nor catch him dumping garbage in the small hours.
